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Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think?
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boing
Jun 8, 12 6:18
Post #1 of 49
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Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think?
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With the high amount of TT km’s in the Tour this year, aero tech could play a significant role particularly if it is a close race which indications suggest it might be. We have seen a pro triathlete choose likely performance gains of one bike over another override sponsorship harmony should Sky consider it or is their current ride no disadvantage?
When the Pinarello Graal was released the impression on the forum seemed to be that it failed in the eyeball wind tunnel. The general impression seemed to be that it failed to meet the standards set by the latest "superbike" level and possibly even the previous standard "P3" performance level. Sky's riders certainly don't seem to be hampered in their Time Trial results though how much this is just the result of the speeds and distance of the top roadie tt's meaning any frames aero gain is likely to be very much more marginal than say an Ironman bike leg is unclear. How much of an advantage if any will the likes of Martin’s shiv, Evan’s BMC or Cancellara’s Speedconcept give them over the Graal in the 100k+ of TT’ing in this year’s tour?
Perhaps the design is more aero than first given credit? Obviously the Sky team and British Cycling are closely tied and British Cycling has made a big deal over all the marginal gains that have made through technology from skin suit material to narrower bars. If the Graal’s performance was particularly lower than the bikes of BMC, Cervelo, Trek, Specialized etc ridden by rival teams would we not have seen some kind of bike design collaboration as seen with Highroad and Giant in the past? With it looking likely that Sky will switch to Specialized bikes next year might it come a year too late given the influence of that tt’ing might have this year and being an Olympic year?
jackmott
Jun 8, 12 6:24
Post #2 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [boing]
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If the Pinarello is on par with a P3 then it is giving up just 10 watts to the shiv.
looks like wiggins had 20 watts more than martin!
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Herbert
Jun 8, 12 6:25
Post #3 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [boing]
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No, Wiggins just knows how to ride fast - on any bike.
Ex-cyclist
Jun 8, 12 6:32
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Herbert]
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Herbert wrote:
No, Wiggins just knows how to ride fast - on any bike.
(not necessarily directed at you)
The other thing is that as fast as these guys ride the yaw angle is approaching zero for a vast majority of the TT. Most of the new super bikes are tuned for higher yaw angles.
See P4 aero test:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...the_Tunnel_1929.html
Still the Pina looks to be an aero mess, but might not be too bad at 0-5 degrees.
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boing
Jun 8, 12 6:52
Post #5 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Ex-cyclist]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Herbert wrote:
No, Wiggins just knows how to ride fast - on any bike.
(not necessarily directed at you)
The other thing is that as fast as these guys ride the yaw angle is approaching zero for a vast majority of the TT. Most of the new super bikes are tuned for higher yaw angles.
See P4 aero test:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...the_Tunnel_1929.html
Still the Pina looks to be an aero mess, but might not be too bad at 0-5 degrees.
This is what I was alluding too when I mentioned the speed + of course the fact that the quicker you ride the less time you have too save.
(This post was
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boing
Jun 8, 12 6:57
Post #6 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [jackmott]
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I wonder the performance gains are around this mark for the Shiv what (or should that be watt) difference that may have made in the World TT champs last year?
(This post was
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jackmott
Jun 8, 12 6:57
Post #7 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [boing]
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boing wrote:
+ of course the fact that the quicker you ride the less time you have too save.
That doesn't change the impact of marginal improvements on placing though. That fact compresses the differences between finishes in the same proportion as it compresses the differences in time.
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DieTryin'
Jun 8, 12 7:49
Post #8 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [boing]
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Well if Team Sky (therefore British Cycling, therefore Chris Boardman) had some input into its design, you wouldn't expect it to be rubbish......
jackmott
Jun 8, 12 7:51
Post #9 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [boing]
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boing wrote:
I wonder the performance gains are around this mark for the Shiv what (or should that be watt) difference that may have made in the World TT champs last year?
So hard to say. Plus rider A may have a better frame than rider B but worse helmets, or skinsuits, or positions or handlebars or wheels or tires.
A bad tire choice would easily overwhelm a superior frame choice for instance.
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Fleck
Jun 8, 12 8:01
Post #10 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Herbert]
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No, Wiggins just knows how to ride fast - on any bike.
Bingo.
Fabian Cancellara won the World ITT Championships on, a Cervelo p3 and Specialized Shiv, He may still win one riding a Trek Speed Concept. What does that mean?
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btmoney
Jun 8, 12 8:08
Post #11 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [DieTryin']
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Pretty sure the Graal was designed before Team Sky was founded.
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jackmott
Jun 8, 12 8:09
Post #12 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Fleck]
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All 3 of those bikes were among the quickest in the world at the time he won on them.
It might suggest Fabian makes sure he is on a team that can give him a good TT bike.
Fleck wrote:
No, Wiggins just knows how to ride fast - on any bike.
Bingo.
Fabian Cancellara won the World ITT Championships on, a Cervelo p3 and Specialized Shiv, He may still win one riding a Trek Speed Concept. What does that mean?
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Fleck
Jun 8, 12 8:24
Post #13 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [jackmott]
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All 3 of those bikes were among the quickest in the world at the time he won on them.
It might suggest Fabian makes sure he is on a team that can give him a good TT bike.
Then I stand corrected, Jack. Excuse me. It's all about the bike! :)
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Record10Carbon
Jun 8, 12 8:28
Post #14 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Fleck]
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I find it sooooooooo funny how shoulder position as compared to wind direction is never ever taken into consideration on this forum. I am pretty certain that one wayward elbow and forearm alee of the bars would offer FAR more aero gain than some minor adjustment in the frame......
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jackmott
Jun 8, 12 8:31
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [R10C]
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R10C wrote:
I find it sooooooooo funny how shoulder position as compared to wind direction is never ever taken into consideration on this forum. I am pretty certain that one wayward elbow and forearm alee of the bars would offer FAR more aero gain than some minor adjustment in the frame......
If an arm adjustment saves 5 seconds, and a frame adjustment saves only 2 seconds.
The frame adjustment still saves 2 seconds. You want those seconds? Tony Martin does.
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Record10Carbon
Jun 8, 12 8:35
Post #16 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [jackmott]
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At the pro level, certainly. However, it seems that you have never been to an Iron distance (or half Iron distance) race. Seems to me that the people who by and LARGE worry the most about aero tidbits have one giant aero conundrum holding them back....their gut. But, hey, why shed that when you can dissect the aero gains of a spoke? ;-P
I stand by my belief that I can take a dump before a race and get a higher weight offset than buying some of the new wheels (such as 404 as compared to Firecrest).
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Fleck
Jun 8, 12 9:03
Post #17 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [boing]
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This news just posted up on the Cycling News web site should render this discussion moot and the thread dead . . . or maybe not!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...lized-bikes-in-2013?
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jackmott
Jun 8, 12 9:06
Post #18 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [R10C]
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If a man wants to drink his beer, and have his beer gut too, why can't he also save 1 second per 40k when he goes out to the races? =)
R10C wrote:
At the pro level, certainly. However, it seems that you have never been to an Iron distance (or half Iron distance) race. Seems to me that the people who by and LARGE worry the most about aero tidbits have one giant aero conundrum holding them back....their gut. But, hey, why shed that when you can dissect the aero gains of a spoke? ;-P
I stand by my belief that I can take a dump before a race and get a higher weight offset than buying some of the new wheels (such as 404 as compared to Firecrest).
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Fleck
Jun 8, 12 9:22
Post #19 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [R10C]
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Chip,
I think Wiggans furry sideburns are worth a few seconds. Maybe he'll shave down for the Grand Boucle!
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styrrell
Jun 8, 12 9:27
Post #20 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [jackmott]
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Of course Fabian wins quite a few road races on one of the teams without an aero roadbike, so he does have some riding ability.
Styrrell
btmoney
Jun 8, 12 9:44
Post #21 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Fleck]
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6 million euros per year?! Holy balls. And Wiggo on a Shiv + Venge = WOWIE
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jackmott
Jun 8, 12 9:45
Post #22 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [styrrell]
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styrrell wrote:
so he does have some riding ability.
a *bit*
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boing
Jun 8, 12 10:10
Post #23 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [Fleck]
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This isn't what I am talking about. I might be a dyslexic idiot but do understand that a bike frames aerodynamics only represents a small proportion of total performance (I can at least pretend to be clever well enough to get a 1st for my post grad). When Cancellara was beating people by minutes, the seconds that maybe saved from one frame to another become irrelavent but that may not be the case this summer for the GC contenders. Maybe we will have a re-run of the Lemond - Fignon tour where winning margin is small and time trial technology may have an impact.
However fast Cancellara rode he still had to deal with the laws of physics acting on him and his bike. Yesterday Wiggins may have been the strongest rider by a decent margin but that doesn't mean he might not have gone fast on a different bike - I took Herbert to meaning Wiggins can win inspite of the frame he his riding - ie the Graal isnt anymore aero than people suspect. While in 99% of the races the time gaps between 1st and 2nd place may make that saving of a certain bike frame irrelavant there are however races where this small margin make a difference.
My only real thought of the Graal not being that poor aerdynamically at the speed these guys ride is that sky/British cycling might have perhaps got involved to helped finance Pinarello to bring out something inline with the current crop of Superbikes if it was a real dog. Obviously given that it looks like the Sky Pinarello partnership will end this year I don't think we are likely to see anything now.
guadzilla
Jun 8, 12 10:18
Post #24 of 49
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [jackmott]
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jackmott wrote:
The frame adjustment still saves 2 seconds. You want those seconds? Tony Martin does.
I think what Tony Martin wants is to NOT be hit by any more cars while training. :)
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jackmott
Jun 8, 12 10:21
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Re: Is the Pinarello Graal - more aero than people think? [guadzilla]
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guadzilla wrote:
jackmott wrote:
The frame adjustment still saves 2 seconds. You want those seconds? Tony Martin does.
I think what Tony Martin wants is to NOT be hit by any more cars while training. :)
seriously
tony and I are alike in that way, and that is the only way.
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