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Is it better to train on your road bike?

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bradl016

Jul 17, 12 23:43

Post #1 of 44 (3177 views)

Is it better to train on your road bike?	Quote \| Reply

With VERY little knowledge of the subject and NO time spent googling for answers, I submit:

If riding a road bike allows you to physiologically produce more power, does it not behoove you to train more frequently on the road bike?

Let's say that Rider A is doing 2x20 (by RPE) on a road bike. He puts out 270 watts, avg. Rider B (who is exactly the same in all respects) does the same on a tri bike. Rider B produces 260 watts, avg. They ride like this for a year. At the end, their hard work gives them a 7% increase in FTP. Rider A is now able to push 289 watts. Rider B can only push 278.

Assuming that Rider A has a good bike fit when he gets on a tri bike, doesn't his higher FTP overwhelm whatever losses he experiences from moving to a new position? Or are the muscles really differently recruited?

Or is this whole concept just silly? I guess the post that sparked this idea did begin with a disclaimer (th:

Jeremy.Hafner wrote:

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but just pure geometry of the road bike vs the tri bike, I would think a road bike will produce more watts when ridden by the same person. When you sit on a roadbike, you seat tube angle is around 73-74', and that causes your hips and feet to be behind the pedal axis. This lets you really push down hard on the pedal. On a tri bike, you're in a much more aggressive position and your hips are on top of or sometimes in front of the crank axis. You'll produce less power in that position.

---------------------------------
Oklahoma State Cycling Club
Bicycles of Tulsa Racing Team
District Bicycles - Stillwater, USA

AwesomePossum

Jul 17, 12 23:51

Post #2 of 44 (3168 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

It's not an issue of different muscle recruitment as hip angles are essentially the same for both an optimized tri bike (aero) and road bike position. Both riders are stressing their aerobic systems similarly, so Rider B (who now pushes 278 watts on a tri bike) should be able to push the 289 watts on a road bike like Rider A and vice-versa.

Or I might be wrong?

bradl016

Jul 17, 12 23:56

Post #3 of 44 (3155 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [AwesomePossum] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Why does he get to push 289 on a road bike? If we respond to stress, Rider A has been stressing his body with more intensity for a year and will have adapted more intensely? Rider B hasn't been pushing his body quite as hard (because he's awkwardly positioned on his bike) and so hasn't gained as much fitness because he needs to HTFU.

Or I could be wrong :)

---------------------------------
Oklahoma State Cycling Club
Bicycles of Tulsa Racing Team
District Bicycles - Stillwater, USA

(This post was edited by bradl016 on Jul 17, 12 23:57)

runsliketurtle

Jul 18, 12 0:00

Post #4 of 44 (3141 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Rappstar's opinion
http://204.187.14.165/...post=3919687#3919687
�I�m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!� Kenny Powers

bradl016

Jul 18, 12 0:16

Post #5 of 44 (3117 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [runsliketurtle] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

excellent opinion to have. I definitely agree with the comments about strengthening back muscles and getting comfortable in aero. But it doesn't quite satisfy my question: can you see bigger wattage gains by riding a road bike - because it allows you to produce more watts?

Thought experiment:

You have the sweet luck in life to always ride with a tail wind. And not just a little tailwind, a HUGE tailwind that basically prevents you from successfully hitting 270 watts while at a normal cadence. Your 2x20 efforts are maxed out around 270w because you just can't spin your legs any faster.

Your poor buddy, Fred, always has a headwind. Even at 280 watts, he's only going like 17 mph. And that helmet mirror ain't helping.

Fred (despite his name), is going to have a higher FTP in the end, because he trains at higher intensities. And when all these winds stop, he's gonna smoke your ass.

So, if a road bike lets you train at higher intensities, then shouldn't we be doing the majority of our training on them?

ETA: I think this is basically the 'climbing' argument. You don't need to practice climbing to be stronger on the +10% hills. Any threshold work with do the job. But actually being on the hill, at 350 watts and going 17 mph spurs you to train more intensely. Because 350 watts @ 28 mph on the flats just feels silly.

---------------------------------
Oklahoma State Cycling Club
Bicycles of Tulsa Racing Team
District Bicycles - Stillwater, USA

(This post was edited by bradl016 on Jul 18, 12 0:20)

runsliketurtle

Jul 18, 12 0:24

Post #6 of 44 (3102 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I think its a personal thing. I found that training on my road bike was more comfortable and allowed me to push higher watts (I know I probably needed to adjust my fit on my tri bike). On the other hand, for a longer race, its harder to stay in the aero bars if you're not used to it.
�I�m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!� Kenny Powers

Borden

Jul 18, 12 2:54

Post #7 of 44 (3020 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I can't comment specifically on the road vs TT as I dumped my road bike after loving my TT, but I ended up doing a N=1 experiment this year on "TT sitting up vs TT aerobars."

I spent all winter on the trainer 3x/wk doing intervals and saw some good gains. I sat up 90% of the time as I hate riding the trainer in aero. When the weather warmed up and I headed out to blow away my previous FTP test from the trainer, I actually lost power. I also did a few races and found it impossible to hold my projected FTP% for the distances.

I discovered that basebar riding and aero riding are two different animals. I will definetly train as I race and stay aero on a TT.

Just to clairify, I did see improvements in my aero position FTP test, just not as much as my "sitting upright on the trainer" FTP test from 6 wks earlier. It's now been another month and my training suggests that I've eliminated that gap, but I haven't tested yet.
--------------------------------------------------------
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ICSTG

Jul 18, 12 4:14

Post #8 of 44 (2930 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

bradl016 wrote:

I don't understand your comment "because it allows you to produce more watts". Your legs produce the watts, not the bike. If you ride 200 watts on a TT bike, you'll ride 200 watts on a road bike, but you'll be going slower. I think it is merely a matter of preference because as rappstarr's link stated, you are working almost all the same systems. I ride my road bike all winter because I just ride with my guys rather than do specific workouts.

AutomaticJack

Jul 18, 12 4:25

Post #9 of 44 (2906 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

If you are doing the same training routine on the road bike that you do on the TT bike, then it is silly to not ride the TT bike.

If you mean get on a road bike and ride with the fast bike club group in tight formations, sprint out of corners, charge up hills, and just generally alternated between hard steady riding and deep oxygen debt, then yes the road bike is better for you. A lot better.

I've never rode my TT bike to point of lower body failure and gasping for air trying not to puke. I did all those things on the road bike last Sunday. The gasp and puke part several times in 3 hours.

jaretj

Jul 18, 12 4:31

Post #10 of 44 (2891 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [ICSTG] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I agree that your legs are producing the watts and it's a matter of personal preference.

As long as people are comfortable riding their race bike it really doesn't matter what you ride. Last year I spent a lot of time on my mountain and I was still really strong on my Tri bike.

Unlike others, I been unable to produce more power on my road bike than my tri bike. I'm still working on that though.

jaretj

Felt_Rider

Jul 18, 12 5:10

Post #11 of 44 (2822 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [jaretj] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I am new to using a TT bike (as of a few months ago) and was concerned about losing fitness. I continue to use my road bike for weekday indoor training for L4 intervals using e-Motion rollers and then use longer routes on the weekend to get used to the position on the TT bike with a lower intensity (L3/L2 for the most part and short stints of L4 here and there). The first few weeks I had very little confidence in bike handling skills, but using it on long routes I still racked up some good TSS on 4 to 6 hour rides. With that long of a route I gained a lot of confidence. Each week since my power output has increased a little more on the TT bike. A couple of weekends I joined in with group rides so it was back out on the road bike and last weekend I wanted to hammer a short 50 mile route so I used my road bike.

I suppose I will continue to use both and hope that at some point my sustainable power output on the TT bike will continue to come up to match what I can do on the road bike. What I have noticed is to match watts on the road bike on comparable routes is that my speed is much higher and that has made it more challenging in obedience to traffic laws, pedestrians and other such things. Something I did not consider previously as part of the challenge. Weird to say, but fortunately I have a low FT. If my FT were 300+ I can't imagine how that makes it more challenging. Hopefully FTP will improve and I face those challenges as they come.

I have a lot to learn and a lot of improvement to make.

(This post was edited by Felt_Rider on Jul 18, 12 5:13)

Tri-Banter

Jul 18, 12 5:17

Post #12 of 44 (2802 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

For me, I think the better question is: Once you own and ride your tri-bike, why would you even consider the road bike?

I keep my road bike around in case of tragic tri-bike emergency. Otherwise, it's tri-bike all the way.

____________________________________
Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

JoeO

Jul 18, 12 6:01

Post #13 of 44 (2726 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Tri-Banter] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Tri-Banter wrote:

Because tor riding in a group, a tri bike sucks. And for climbing, a tri bike sucks.

Tri-Banter

Jul 18, 12 6:17

Post #14 of 44 (2669 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [JoeO] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

JoeO wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

Because tor riding in a group, a tri bike sucks.
What's "riding in a group"? People do this?

And for climbing, a tri bike sucks.
What are you climbing up? Tri-bikes aren't that much worse off. If you have a mountain section, like the Le Tour, agreed. The rest of the hills we call climbing... not so much.

____________________________________
Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Lab_man

Jul 18, 12 6:23

Post #15 of 44 (2631 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [JoeO] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

JoeO wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

Because tor riding in a group, a tri bike sucks. And for climbing, a tri bike sucks.

And some groups will not let you ride with aero bars.

lightheir

Jul 18, 12 6:23

Post #16 of 44 (2631 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Tri-Banter] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I don't know how this is even a question, honestly.

If you want to max your TT bike ability, you have to train on the TT bike.

Even if you can pump out more watts on a road bike, you're going to revert to TT style deficiencies if you're not on your TT bike.

Not sure why this is confusing all of a sudden. If you can't generate enough power on the TT bike, you better work on riding it until it comes up to snuff. Likewise, if you can't hold that aero position for hours, it's not gonna help to ride your road bike just because you CAN ride hoods/drops on it for 6 hours, but can't do aero on the TT bike for 3 in IM training.

Specificity is king.

(Now if you're training with goal of riding with competitive roadies in pacelines, that's a different specificity and requires a road bike. But we're talking nondrafting tri here.)

(This post was edited by lightheir on Jul 18, 12 6:24)

JoeO

Jul 18, 12 6:29

Post #17 of 44 (2609 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Tri-Banter] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Tri-Banter wrote:

What are you climbing up? Tri-bikes aren't that much worse off. If you have a mountain section, like the Le Tour, agreed. The rest of the hills we call climbing... not so much.

Yes. So much.

The saddest thing is watching the guy who brought the tri-bike to the group ride try to get out of the saddle on a climb.

Indigodog

Jul 18, 12 6:48

Post #18 of 44 (2551 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

After 18 years of consistent racing I have found you should do both. Although your hip angles can be the same your power stroke isn't. You need practice in the aero position to be effective. The road bike lets you work your aerobics in a more comfortable position and reduces wear on your nether regions. I liken it to multisport training in one discipline.

Rappstar

Jul 18, 12 7:44

Post #19 of 44 (2454 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

http://iamspecialized.com/...rdan-rapp/752/#/blog

davearm

Jul 18, 12 8:07

Post #20 of 44 (2393 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Let's unravel the math here a little.

Two identical riders produce 270W on a roadbike and 260W on a tri bike. So the tri positioning has a cost of 3.7% (10/270).

After a year of training on the roadbike, 270W has grown to 289W. Now if we put the same rider on a tri bike, and assuming the losses are the same as they had been originally, we'd expect him to push 278W (289 * (1-.037)).

Meanwhile after a year of training on the tri bike, 260W has grown to 278W.

278W = 278W.

Ergo, no difference in the training effect, assuming both riders increase FTP at the same rate (7% in your example).

davearm

Jul 18, 12 8:13

Post #21 of 44 (2374 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [davearm] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

So the question becomes, can a rider increase FTP faster on a road bike versus a tri bike.

And if so, then do those accelerated gains outweigh the downside of not being as accustomed/comfortable in aero. As has been mentioned, the gains kinda go out the window pretty quickly if you get in a race and can't stay in aero for very long.

Grande Pelota

Jul 18, 12 8:15

Post #22 of 44 (2361 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Indeed, the power you produce is the stimulus. BUT, the acceptable difference between road and tri is not so big as to the trump the other considerations outlined in Jordan's blog. If your power difference is big enough to matter, that needs to be sorted out first.

Lou3000

Jul 18, 12 8:17

Post #23 of 44 (2349 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Looks like Rapp himself has beat me to providing his info and article about position differences to training on road/tri.

After a couple years owning both, I would say I don't see any negative result from training on one or the other, and for the most part I choose the bike that is best for the situation. I personally hate long, solo training days on my road bike, and therefore it is relegated to fast group rides and specific work outs.

I think the biggest component is simply making sure you are comfortable on the bike you race on. Even if you increase your FTP 7% by riding a road bike, if you get on a tri bike and are miserable, it is going to cost you a lot more than 7%

nhoya

Jul 18, 12 8:24

Post #24 of 44 (2329 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [davearm] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I train on both my road and tri bike. When I am in a build phase, I am on my road bike exclusively, as it's a bit more comfortable. Then once March hits, it's time for the TT bike exclusively, as our season has begun in FL. However, this is more out of laziness, since I have one set of training wheels (mavic cosmic carbone 66). I raced at FL70.3 in May, and didn't switch my training wheels back to my tri bike, so I have been training exclusively on my road bike (group rides, spins, workout sessions) and racing on my Tri Bike. I have seen my race times progress big time in the past 2 months. We have monthly TT's on the same 15k course at Ft. Desoto park. I went from just at 20 minutes three months ago, to 19:56 in May, to 19:36 this past week. I actually attribute this to two things: trying to hit times in a less efficient position (non-aero) forces you to work really damn hard. I rationalize it as "weight training" for cycling. And second: my road bike cranks are 175mm, and my TT bike is 172.5mm. This slight difference doesn't put as much emphasis on singular muscle groups, and allows for more muscle recruitment (hammies and quads in push, flat foot at bottom of stroke, smoother stroke). Altogether, I have seen a marked improvement in times and placement. Getting on my TT bike now doesn't even seem fair.

kdw

Jul 18, 12 8:33

Post #25 of 44 (2307 views)

Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [JoeO] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"The saddest thing is watching the guy who brought the tri-bike to the group ride try to get out of the saddle on a climb."

I think this may be an individual thing as I don't have any trouble climbing on my tri bike.

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