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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [ToKnowMore] [ In reply to ]
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ToKnowMore wrote:
Great question. To be honest, I don't know. If I don't do flip turns, I have to accelerate and de-accelerate more.

Run that past us again? Last I checked, people who do flip turns have to decelerate ("de-accelerate" isn't a word) into the wall and accelerate off the wall, just like those who do open turns.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [ToKnowMore] [ In reply to ]
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ok...to be kind I will say this (I'm not an olympic level swimmer, but I'm half way decent...i still have half way to go)

I used to be of the same mindset as a lot of triathlete's regarding flip turns. Then I started doing flip turns and realized that a) I was getting a break at the walls on open turns even though i didn't think i was b) suddenly swimming longer sets (anything over 100 yards straight) seemed harder with flip turns. It dawned on me at that point that I wasn't working as hard as I thought I was in the pool.

What I have noticed is, the better I got at flip turns, the stronger I have become at swimming in general. Flip turns eventually become second nature. The big thing to me is, even though I'm making up time by having faster turns, I'm also working harder (more continuous) by not doing open turns. Also, I noticed that one of my shoulders was bugging me from grabbing the wall at every turn.

A couple of guys at my masters swim workout have made comments like..."I can keep up with you...it's just that your turns are so much faster than mine". My reply is something along the lines of "dude...you're keeping up with me for a whopping 25 yards...and if you really think it's just my turns that are faster then I have a bridge to sell you". They cannot keep up with me in open water either...which blows their theory out of the water (and again, i don't consider myself to be an elite level swimmer by any stretch of the imagination).

If you do a 500, 1000, 1500 continuous using open turns vs flip turns...which one feels harder? Which way are you faster? If you are faster by doing open turns, that should tell you something (i.e. you're getting a break at the walls).

The one area I differ with some is in using toys. I personally feel that using fins is a great tool...especially for learning flip turns. I use fins and paddles quite often...but not much pull buoy. If you want to do longer pull sets, you're better off using fins as opposed to a PB (IMO). With fins you're not able to cheat as much with your body position (and you're legs still have to work). That's my theory...and I'm not saying it's the right theory.

As many have pointed out, you will not find many pro triathlete's who cannot swim pretty damn well. I'm willing to bet they all do flip turns. My advice to you and anybody else doing open turns is to suck it up and start doing flip turns. If you make up your mind to always do them, in a few months it will feel normal and you'll be thankful you did it.

And to the guy pointing out Gary Hall jr...wasn't the quote "why would i do flip turns at less than 100%"? It sounded more like he was not doing flip turns in a warmup...not that he doesn't do them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine he does open turns in practice all the time. I'm sure Gary Hall Sr. could let us know.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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electusunus wrote:
Striving for perfection is just plain stupid - it is not efficient to spend all your time trying to be perfect in the pool.

This is one of the more stupid things I've read on slowtwitch about swimming, and that is saying a lot. The reason swim practice is called swim practice is that you should be working to perfect your technique every single stroke. It is the opposite of efficient to do otherwise. Clueless you are.

It's attitudes like this that keep 95% of triathletes slower than most 9 year old girls on the local Y swim team.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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No it's people being too lazy or not knowing how to use the damn search function. I've been here since, god, close to day 1, and I can't tell you how many times this *exact* debate has been on ST. Maybe we need to make the "SEARCH" section of the forum bigger/bolder/more obvious...

To the OP: If you want to be good at all 3 disciplines you need to train each discipline individually. I guarantee if you actually put the relatively minor effort into learning how to do a half-decent flip-turn, your swimming will improve, period. You don't want to, fine. I have no problem being in front of you in T1. ;-)

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Tri or Die] [ In reply to ]
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Tri or Die wrote:
1. I swam with my buddy Tom Swift, a South Jersey LEGEND. He asked what my yardage was like and I replied with "5-6 grand per day, 3-4 days per week!" He said, "Your 30 years old, cut the crap and swim your main set only and swim it correctly." So we swam 2000 correctly and properly. After swimming with him I realized that when you swim correctly, you could cut the crap (the crap is the yardage!)

2. What does this have to do with flip turns? If you are going to swim in the pool, swim like a swimmer in the pool. There is a correct way of doing it, so cut the crap, flip turn, and push yourself for the time that you have given yourself. Your body doesn't know a time or a flip; what it does know is… "Does this hurt?"

3. When you are in open water, swim like you are in open water! Go train with "respectable" lifeguards and in some cases people who train to race open water. Swim in the open water like an open water swimmer. I have rarely seen a triathlete who knew how to train in the ocean or open water.

4. Cycle like a cyclist.

5. Run Like a runner.

6. TRANSITION like a triathlete.

7. Shop like an American so you can buy cool stuff to look good! (And possibly go faster)

So, your question was should you flip? You want to swim with best? ...There is you answer.

I think my quote sums up most of the quality replies. Start "flipping out" kiddies!!!
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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So true. Instead of banging out a really sh*tty looking 1000m, doing 10x100m with perfect form (and that means enough rest between each 100m to keep that form) will yield far better results. 4 weeks of that type of swimming will give a much better 1000m steady result in the end. Analogous to the "LSD" runs or rides, which often teach people to just run or ride long and very slow...

Swimming is SO technique focused. You need to aim for a perfect entry, catch, pull and recovery with *every* stroke. That is the perfection swimmers should be striving for.

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:
Just flip slightly early so that your toes just graze the wall and you can't actually push off the wall.

You should also swim with your eyes closed so you don't get the benefit of the line on the bottom of the pool or the lane lines. You should only open your eyes when you sight.

Following these two key guidelines will not only make you a better swimmer, it will also make you extremely popular with the people in your lane line.


I think both of those points are extremely helpful. I do flip early so I don't glide 3/4 of the pool- but I never thought to try swimming while ONLY sighting. Im going to try that. Screw the other folks in my lane, they can kiss my M-dot tatted calf! haha
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Always do flip turns. If you are training seriously, you owe it to yourself. Also, people will laugh at you if you don't!
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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The sad thing is that the OP had a legitimate question, one that many beginning triathletes seem to have.

In an open manner, he reached out to a community of triathletes for knowledge and understanding.....instead, he received scorn.

If you guys want a forum where the same questions don't get asked over & over, I suggest a closed forum where new members can't join. Otherwise, accept the fact that this is a 'community", with new people coming in all the time. God forbid someone be accepting of that vs. ridiculing newbies.

There is a lot of great knowledge on this board, and I have learned quite a bit since joining. I still remain flabbergasted by the attitude of some of the long-time members. And they say roadies have attitude? Ain't nuthin' compared to what I see here some days.


Cry me a f'ing river. It isn't scorn...it's telling it how it is. We're all adults here mate.

The only sad thing about this thread is that the OP mistakenly thought that by doing flip turns somehow he/she was doing less swimming. It was repeated by the OP 2 or 3 times in different posts.

In fact it's the opposite...by doing flip turns you are continuously swimming, as opposed to coming to a complete stop at every wall.

Becoming a good triathlon swimmer shouldn't entail just banging out lap after lap after lap of front crawl. Triathletes of all people should be embracing techniques that help develop their body's feel for reducing drag and increasing propulsion...including flip turns.

That was the point of my post to which you replied.



blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:
Not to go off topic, but can you throw us a few bones on number 3? What are we likely to me missing?

Understand how to work with conditions that are not simply still water- how do you read and correct for it when there's a huge current on the outbound leg of a race? Shortening your strokes in choppy conditions or when you're swimming against a current in order to maintain more constant forward momentum; gliding more on the front end when you're swimming with a current because the water pushing you forward lets you get a little more rest; figuring out the optimal point at which to stop swimming and start walking out of the water. (usual rule of thumb is when your hands start hitting sand) Learning how to not panic when it seems like you're swimming through an Amazin swamp.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
electusunus wrote:
Striving for perfection is just plain stupid - it is not efficient to spend all your time trying to be perfect in the pool.


This is one of the more stupid things I've read on slowtwitch about swimming, and that is saying a lot. The reason swim practice is called swim practice is that you should be working to perfect your technique every single stroke. It is the opposite of efficient to do otherwise. Clueless you are.

It's attitudes like this that keep 95% of triathletes slower than most 9 year old girls on the local Y swim team.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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I think you and show pony have just proved my point. Thanks.

My $.02 - one of the benefits of boards like this is the interaction between members and learning new things. Hell, there is a little thing called Google which beats the cr@p out of the Search function on this board any day. The reality is the people new to the sport have lots of questions, and one of the best ways to get those questions answered is to interact with people who have more experience / knowledge.

Sorry it is such a hassle for you to deal with repeat topics. But if they are such a bother to you, wouldn't it just be easier to ignore them? Huh....

KAlber, thanks for the post. I have a much better understanding now of the benefits of flip turns. I have to admit that I had similar questions to the one that started this thread. Your point re: longer sets suddenly seeming harder makes perfect sense. While I don't really for see flip turns in my immediate future (WAY too many other things to work on right now!!), I will definitely make an attempt to begin to work on them in the coming base period.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [show pony] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you could come to a stop at each wall, turn 180 without touching the wall or the bottom of the pool and start up again without any pushoff. You wouldn't have to worry about the distance you're pushing off. Pretty sure that's going to be the most difficult way to swim any distance.

I understand where the OP is coming from. In a 25m pool you spend twice as much time pushing off as in a 50m pool. Would a 1000m swim be more difficult in a 25m pool or a 50m pool?
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [ToKnowMore] [ In reply to ]
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Wait, I thought we weren't swimming this winter.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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AndyPants wrote:
No it's people being too lazy or not knowing how to use the damn search function. I've been here since, god, close to day 1, and I can't tell you how many times this *exact* debate has been on ST. Maybe we need to make the "SEARCH" section of the forum bigger/bolder/more obvious...

To the OP: If you want to be good at all 3 disciplines you need to train each discipline individually. I guarantee if you actually put the relatively minor effort into learning how to do a half-decent flip-turn, your swimming will improve, period. You don't want to, fine. I have no problem being in front of you in T1. ;-)

AP

I did a search before I started this thread. I typed, "flip turns" in the search box. I got 147 pages of threads. I did another search using the advanced options. I searched for "flip turns" and selected the option of subject only. I got 51 pages of threads. Given that each page has about 20 threads, that is a lot to go through. Could you please help me learn how to do better searches?

Maybe you could help me to understand something else. Why do you think it is that no one has posted a link to previous threads on this subject?
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [show pony] [ In reply to ]
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"The push off, streamlining, the breakout, kick, back, fly, IM, etc etc etc...you know, all the things the under-achieving triathlon "swimmer" refuses to master...it's all swimming."

That's a very good point. I didn't think about that. Thank you.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [ToKnowMore] [ In reply to ]
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ToKnowMore wrote:
Maybe you could help me to understand something else. Why do you think it is that no one has posted a link to previous threads on this subject?

It's the Paulo Sousa method: we're not going to hold your hand and wipe your nose for you. The truth is out there.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [ToKnowMore] [ In reply to ]
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If you really want to focus on pure swimming you should hit a 50 metre pool when OW is not available. This debate is laughable at best.

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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to have easy access to a 50m pool...25y gets annoying.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
ToKnowMore wrote:

Maybe you could help me to understand something else. Why do you think it is that no one has posted a link to previous threads on this subject?


It's the Paulo Sousa method: we're not going to hold your hand and wipe your nose for you. The truth is out there.

Just what I need, another thread about me.

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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [KAlber] [ In reply to ]
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KAlber wrote:
I would love to have easy access to a 50m pool...25y gets annoying.

You should build one. Out doors, heated, open year round and located somewhere between your house and mine ;-)

As for the search function debate. People should read the forum for about the first three months without ever posting anything. After that they should only reply to posts when they actually know something about the topic/have something to add not learned from "a fast dude they know" for a couple of months. After that period they should be aware enough about what goes on that they can ask how to make flat coke and not be offended by the responses they get.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Just an idea...building from both of you, maybe making a section showing the top 20 searches for the day/week/month would be helpful.

edit: to the OP...do the flip turns cuz all the cool kids are doing them.

jaretj
Last edited by: jaretj: Feb 9, 11 9:16
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
The reality is the people new to the sport have lots of questions, and one of the best ways to get those questions answered is to interact with people who have more experience / knowledge.
So it seems the price of quickly gaining free advice from experienced triathletes is some gentle needling. The OP wasn't insulted and received all the answers plus a little humour along the way. Seems fair.
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [ToKnowMore] [ In reply to ]
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You make a good point re: how "good" the search function is... might be worth some thought/feedback to Jordan... but that's for another afternoon ;-)

Re: no other links, also a good point. A variety fer ya:
1: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=3104226;
2: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2749157;
3: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2737894;
4: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2677539;
5: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2203937;
6: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2182419;
7: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2158454;
8: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2095418;
9: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2082288;
10: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...um.cgi?post=2007226;

Lots of different opinions and perspectives in there.

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Is it better not to do flip turns? [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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@PS...That's funny!

Sharting Happens...deal with it!

http://caughtontherun.blogspot.com/
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