Ironman struggling with Superfrog???

Mar 9, 15 9:41

Post #1 of 30 (11616 views)

So with great anticipation I have watched the participant list release of ironman races this year. I have watched a couple of the lists of races I am doing, namely St. George and IMCDA and these are filling up near or over the 2,000 participant range which means either a sell out or close too it. I also kept a watch on the races they took over this year. Namely The Big Kahuna, now Santa Cruz 70.3 and Superfrog. I figured Santa Cruz would do well because of the price being similar to their other races and was right, it has approx. 1100-1200 racers so far through March now and it seems like it will fill up as September is still 6 months away. Now what was funny is everyone (threads on slowtwitch) said Superfrog would be DOA with the debacle of charging $500 initially and then a few days later they they said $200 was a tax deductible donation. I kind of felt that it may surprise a lot of people and sell out, but.......... In February most races had their participant list released on Ironman website but not Superfrog's....hmmmm.........month of March they released the list. Approximately 240ish participants. What a shame, I hope that magically people feel charitable and want to pay double with what they normally pay at similar races or this is going to be a race to go off into the sunset. I realize there is still time for this race to be a sell out for Ironman and there is no shame in a race with 500 people racing as the event still will go on and be great I am sure, but wouldn't this be a little low for Ironman standards? Perhaps they end up with 1500 participants by September and it does great, (Which I hope for the sake of charity to the military families). Am I drawing conclusions to soon?

I hope people feel compelled to donate to our military and military families. I have read that Superfrog was a great race and I know Ironman puts on a fantastic race I am just not sure what their business plan was for Superfrog?? Kill it, or make it a destination race? I know people will have opinions, just curious what everyone thinks given the circumstances and information......

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 9, 15 10:07

Post #2 of 30 (11534 views)

I am still convinced WTC wanted to, for whatever reason, kill this race. And it will succeed.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

Mar 9, 15 10:18

Post #3 of 30 (11485 views)

I prefer to select my own charities. Thank you very much. And I believe military charities are worthwhile. However I don't appreciate a company doubling the price under the guise of a charitable contribution.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 9, 15 10:34

Post #4 of 30 (11425 views)

I'm curious to know how many of those 240 athletes are active military who, rightfully, got a significantly reduced entry fee and a possibility of a Kona slot? The pool of athletes paying $500 may be even less.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [AdamHill] [ In reply to ]

Mar 9, 15 10:38

Post #5 of 30 (11403 views)

good point indeed. Something tells me we will never know......

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 9, 15 10:41

Post #6 of 30 (11377 views)

Military charities are where the majority of our yearly donations go. With that being said I will donate directly to them instead of WTC. How they handled this one from the beginning is a disgrace but I have come to expect that of them.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 8:33

Post #7 of 30 (10886 views)

Yet another example of WTC "watering the soup". It's great to make a profit but these guys sometimes lose all reason. Messing in this way with a race that is so traditional in our sport is not right.

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [AdamHill] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 8:45

Post #8 of 30 (10842 views)

AdamHill wrote:

I'm curious to know how many of those 240 athletes are active military who, rightfully, got a significantly reduced entry fee and a possibility of a Kona slot? The pool of athletes paying $500 may be even less.

Good point. As a military member myself, a race like Superfrog looks like the best opportunity to qualify for Kona. I'm not on that level though, yet ;)...

Still - $500 is ridiculous.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [Ty] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 12:47

Post #9 of 30 (10547 views)

Ty wrote:

I prefer to select my own charities. Thank you very much. And I believe military charities are worthwhile. However I don't appreciate a company doubling the price under the guise of a charitable contribution.

x2

what the wtc has done to this race is a disgrace. i'm military and think they should have just given military priority (early entry), then opened it up to everyone else at a reasonable cost. the size of that mandatory donation is just crap.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 12:53

Post #10 of 30 (10520 views)

Hasn't Superfrog historically had less than 500 entrants?

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 12:56

Post #11 of 30 (10510 views)

Where do you get this information ?

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [craigj532] [ In reply to ]

ratherbeswimmin

Mar 10, 15 13:05

Post #12 of 30 (10476 views)

craigj532 wrote:

Hasn't Superfrog historically had less than 500 entrants?

Yup. Looks like 384 in 2013, 450 in 2012...

ETA: Still no confirmation of the 2 loop ocean swim, which is by far the best part of the event, and the first thing that I think WTC would do away with.

Last edited by: ratherbeswimmin: Mar 10, 15 13:09

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [rhayden] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 13:13

Post #13 of 30 (10444 views)

Not sure what part you are asking rhayden but participant lists for races are on the ironman website. The numbers are readily available for anyone to look at. Let me know if you meant something else. Thanks

In reply to Craig I don't know what the historical yearly participant amount was that attended Superfrog previously. However if it was Ironman's intention to make this race a sell out (2000-2500 people) like many of their other races it doesn't look like that is going to happen as of right now, but a lot can change once people start getting their season in full swing.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Mar 10, 15 14:03

Post #14 of 30 (10351 views)

I don't think Ironman has any intention of accommodating over 1000 participants on this course. Frankly, the course couldn't handle it anyway. With on 500 participants the bike course a draft fest already.

-----

"i�m the one guy who says don�t force the stupid people to be quiet � i want to know who the morons are." -- mark cuban

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [tridiego] [ In reply to ]

Mar 11, 15 19:44

Post #15 of 30 (10037 views)

I forsee more renegade races popping up instead. Last year I did a race called "unofficial man" using the same course. I had a timing clock, with post race catered bbq. Going back old school. Cost to the 24 participants... $0.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Jun 29, 15 19:25

Post #16 of 30 (9310 views)

Surprised this hasn't been brought up yet...

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/americas/ironman-70.3/california/register.aspx#axzz3dnfCh33m

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [ZackP] [ In reply to ]

Jun 29, 15 19:35

Post #17 of 30 (9277 views)

Superseal is a sprint race, not a half. what are you pointing out?

Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [kman74] [ In reply to ]

Jun 29, 15 20:15

Post #18 of 30 (9180 views)

kman74 wrote:

Superseal is a sprint race, not a half. what are you pointing out?

Shouldn't have read so quickly, thought it said superfrog.

Hoka One One - Field Service Rep

Last edited by: ZackP: Aug 12, 15 14:10

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [ZackP] [ In reply to ]

Jun 29, 15 20:25

Post #19 of 30 (9156 views)

Ha. No worries. I find myself saying superseal sometimes when I tell people my schedule. Just didn't know if there was something I was missing. I am doing Superfrog in September.

Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [griffeyfan04] [ In reply to ]

Jun 29, 15 21:53

Post #20 of 30 (9037 views)

agree with others that 500 is ridiculous, BUT having recently moved to San Diego, I'm surprised for being such a supposed tri hotbed at how few races there are in the area. For me, it makes sense to pay the ridiculous entry fee for the convenience of a race literally in my backyard. Apart from Oceanside (hard to get into right?), there just aren't any good half irons close by, so then you're talking driving minimum a few hours, paying at least two nights of hotels, food, etc. It is wildly cost effective for San Diegans to race Superfrog. Plus it has tradition and is a tough (swim and run) but not impossible course (easy bike). What am I missing here?

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [solitude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 15 6:37

Post #21 of 30 (8710 views)

follow this link to the Slowtwitch search page and type in 'Superfrog'. you'll find years of coverage on one of the finest events in the world. the course changes most years depending on permitting with the state (rates to secure the state beaches are incredibly high) and clearance to use sections of the Naval Special Warfare property.

my wife and i used to travel in from Colorado to support the event, and upon moving to San Diego in 2012 helped retired SEALs, race founder Moki Martin and race director Mitch Hall, with the event production. that was by far the biggest year and was 100% due to Lance coming out to race. we also included a F1/Super Sprint that made for some exciting entertainment that drew some big time athletes: Matt Reed, Tyler Butterfield, Leon Griffin, Eric Lagerstrom, Greg Billington, Manny Huerta and more..

back to the point, in '12 we had the 450 athletes racing but also had thousands of spectators out along the Silver Strand Hwy. everyone came out to see #7, who agreed to race in order to raise funds for families of fallen SEALs and SWAC. those roads were at MAX capacity. being a four (4) loop bike course means lots of overtaking and a potentially dangerous mix of slower and faster paced riders. on that course, 2000-2500 is not feasible, so if their goal with Superfrog is to bolster their numbers (Personally, I don't believe that is why they own Superfrog), they will likely need to extend the event into neighboring Imperial Beach and Chula Vista for significant portions of the ride.

hopefully folks realize when signing up for Superfrog the race was conceptualized by Moki for civilians to have the opportunity to navigate the same chilly Pacific swells and trudge across the same sandy beaches that BUD/S and SEALs utilize in their daily training evolutions. sure, this will likely be dumbed down to some degree so WTC can include more racers who need an easier course, but hopefully those key elements that make this race unique will live on.

here are a few ST interviews with key players from Superfrog's storied history:

Moki Martin: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...tin_story__2687.html
Mitch Hall: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...Hall_talks_1342.html

Lars Finanger
Odyssey SwimRun

Last edited by: VALHALLA: Jun 30, 15 6:58

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [solitude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 15 7:05

Post #22 of 30 (8641 views)

solitude wrote:

What am I missing here?

Superfrog is a novelty race, except for what it offers is not really not that much of a novelty for San Diego residents. I'm fine with the race and it has great history, but when you've been in San Diego for a while I think you'll find the novelty of riding around on pancake flat Coronado and running in soft sand for extended periods of time wears off quickly. It is also very late in the season for long course athletes, many whom start as early as Oceanside in April then usually have gone on to race their Iron-distance(s) (and/or several halfs) by late September and are generally ready for the offseason. The one advantage Superfrog's timing offers is it is one last opportunity for redemption if you blew your A-race a month before and want to try and find some way to make up for it. I see that scenario a lot.

As for the lack of races in San Diego in general, there is plenty of racing if you know where to look for it but if you're moving from somewhere else like the midwest where the calendar is all condensed into one ~3 month summer period then you definitely won't have that. San Diego and SoCal in general are way too crowded with tourists and vacationers during the summer to get the permits to shut down any the suitable beaches for any major race. Hence, everything big is before or after kids are out of school or you have smaller races trying to do things in slightly non-standard locations to try and secure a permit.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [solitude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 15 8:06

Post #23 of 30 (8522 views)

solitude wrote:

agree with others that 500 is ridiculous, BUT having recently moved to San Diego, I'm surprised for being such a supposed tri hotbed at how few races there are in the area. For me, it makes sense to pay the ridiculous entry fee for the convenience of a race literally in my backyard. Apart from Oceanside (hard to get into right?), there just aren't any good half irons close by, so then you're talking driving minimum a few hours, paying at least two nights of hotels, food, etc. It is wildly cost effective for San Diegans to race Superfrog. Plus it has tradition and is a tough (swim and run) but not impossible course (easy bike). What am I missing here?

what you talking about ? i hope you arent one of those pople that only 70.3 / 140.6 are triathlons.

1) sd tri club tri's (4-5 a year)
2) superseal
3) spring sprint
4) sdit
5) carlsbad triathlon
6) solona beach
7) chula vista challenge
8) sd tri classic
9) mission bay tri
10) lifetime oceanside
11) oc 70.3
12) superfrog
13) tritonman

Last edited by: synthetic: Jun 30, 15 8:11

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 15 21:23

Post #24 of 30 (8246 views)

synthetic wrote:

solitude wrote:

agree with others that 500 is ridiculous, BUT having recently moved to San Diego, I'm surprised for being such a supposed tri hotbed at how few races there are in the area. For me, it makes sense to pay the ridiculous entry fee for the convenience of a race literally in my backyard. Apart from Oceanside (hard to get into right?), there just aren't any good half irons close by, so then you're talking driving minimum a few hours, paying at least two nights of hotels, food, etc. It is wildly cost effective for San Diegans to race Superfrog. Plus it has tradition and is a tough (swim and run) but not impossible course (easy bike). What am I missing here?

what you talking about ? i hope you arent one of those pople that only 70.3 / 140.6 are triathlons.

1) sd tri club tri's (4-5 a year)
2) superseal
3) spring sprint
4) sdit
5) carlsbad triathlon
6) solona beach
7) chula vista challenge
8) sd tri classic
9) mission bay tri
10) lifetime oceanside
11) oc 70.3
12) superfrog
13) tritonman

Thank you for this list. I was actually not aware of some of these despite using some of the various tri calendar sites. I don't race sprints, just Oly to IM. A lot of the ones you listed are sprints. I think there are 3 or 4 Olys, but otherwise a couple HIMs and the rest sprints. I haven't been able to find any HIMs in the LA area unless I'm just not looking in the right place? So for this huge population center with beautiful weather, you have a handful of Olys, a couple HIMs, and no fulls. Contrast that with, e.g. Norcal, where there are more than 5 HIMs, 2 IMs, and a ton of Olys. Yes in Socal there are Arizona races, but those are quite a drive.

Re: Ironman struggling with Superfrog??? [solitude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 15 22:32

Post #25 of 30 (8186 views)

Check out HITS Palm Springs if you're looking for a full in SoCal

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