What's your run training like? ... frequency and volume? What's your standalone marathon time? What was your pace like prior to the shuffling?

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

What;s your nutrition?

HR high or low when you are forced to shuffle?

What race? If you raced Whistler, I don't think very many people had good runs. That bike course is brutal and it was particularly hot on Sunday. Not brutal heat, just enough to zap energy without you expecting it.

A little more history on run ability and background, training volume for S/B/R, 70.3 run splits, Olympic distance run splits.

I tend to see a pattern among elite age group athletes. Those that train adequately have pretty consistent run times across all 3 distances. Going into my first IM, I'm actually using this to somewhat determine my initial run pace, then just see how I feel after 10k or so.

So if your frequently a 1:35 70.3 runner, then going 3:40 shouldn't be a surprise.

Question is why?

I'd say you run mechanics break down. Your possibly losing use of maybe your glutes and hip flexors, which then overload your hamstrings and calves and pretty soon, your shuffling. You bike pace combined with you bike position might have a lot to do with it. Maybe a little too aggressive, hip angle too closed. The fix could be shorter cranks, maybe raising the front end a little, sliding more forward on the seat or moving it forward. But I'm not a fit expert either. But I've seen an improvement in how I feel off hte biek when making those changes. However, I also started training more at the same time.

The one thing I really noticed after my last 5-1/2 hour ride followed up with a brick run, (I don't do a lot of bricks) was how tight my hip flexors were and how much harder it was to get good leg drive. I haven't had that issue in 70.3. It was also at the end of a higher volume week. I couldn't help but think that while it got a little better 4 miles in, at 10 or 12 miles it might have really gone south.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Everytime I see comments about hip flexors, leg drive, etc., I just am so glad I ride my powercranks all the time and do not seem to have these leg issues. Who knows, maybe the OP should give them a try. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I haven't done a stand alone marathon since 2008 (3:18), but ran 3:40 IM FL 2009, 3:38 in Kona 2010. 3:49 Lake Placid 2010, 3:50 Texas 2011, 2011 Kona 3:50(slower then I would have liked, placed top 10 in 2010, placed in the 30's in 2011 Kona....this is when my runs started falling apart, 2012 IM NY 4:29, IM CZ 2013 4:16 and 2014 IM CA a whopping 4:54!
I run a long run 20mi 1 x per week, my total run miles per week leading unto race were race week 7mi, 2wks out-15mi, 3wks-26, 4wks-37,5wks-47, before that averaged 35 (some weeks at 40, some @ 30). My pace coming off bike was easily a 7, but I quickly made myself slow to 8 knowing I couldn't hold a 7. I ran the first lap while continuing to drop 8.1,8.2,8.3 etc. the entire second lap was shuffle /walk. My whole body and every muscle slowed.

Track yourself backwards from here:

1. Bike pacing....... any metric to confirm that you were basing your "I held back" , what did you base your bike effort off: HR, power, RPE.......combination
2. Bike fueling, did you execute per well rehearsed plan and did you use countless long rides to dial in fluid need, calorie need, electrolyte need
3. Bike training........ do not need to elaborate here, we all know what has to be done, did you have enough specific rides followed by runs to arrive at optimum bike pacing
4. Run training........ no secretes here, consistency, 40-50mi/ week seems to be the norm for your level, number of long runs at or above race pace...........
5. Swim pacing if you have gone too hard here at the start or anywhere along, you will pay that price
6. Swim training the number 5 above price becomes even steeper if your swim training lacked volume and specificity, or simply lacking

Answer some of these to yourself and you will have arrived at the discovery.

Hope this helps. Without knowing a lot more about your training and history, nobody here can help you pinpoint. At the surface it sounds like typical biked too hard as there is no such a thing as a great bike followed by a poor run. That great bike was usually outside of ability for the given athlete. Not saying it is it, just giving you the usual, typical AGer downfall. I am one of them.

My nutrition has been the same since I started IM in 2009. I am a sponsored athlete and use the same product same amount since 2010 and have never had GI issues. It was successful then and can't figure it would be a problem now. I don't train or race with HR.

Reading your comments help...I don't use power and know that 99% of athletes do. I have 1 thing you made me thing about. My brick training in 2009-2012 as compared to 2012-2014. My long bike rides averages 17-18mph pace with 7:40-7:50 5-10 mi runs after. Now my long bike rides average 18-19 mph running off bike 8.1-8.3 ave pace. I chalked it up to AGE, and know I have become stronger on the bike in the pasted few years(probably due to picking up Xterra in 2012). If I could carry an 8.1 ave pace on a race I would be happy, which is why I felt training at that pace was acceptable. My long runs are at that pace as well, always successful and don't zap my week. Do you feel I should train slower on the bike to maintain a faster run during training.....to ultimately receive the same success in a race?

This is very interesting to me. I did my first 70.3 this year and ended up in the same "death shuffle" on the run, even after what I felt was a conservative bike leg. I ride with a very closed hip angle -- here is a pic at the top of the pedal stroke that gives an idea. Do you think my position could be contributing to difficulties on the run? A little more info: I've run one open 1/2 marathon, time was 2:02. My 70.3 run split was 2:55. :P

as mentioned, I am a sponsored athlete, fueling as well as Bike, I received a new Speed Concept 9.9 from Trek this yea, I am also moved to a new Trek shop to handle my sponsorship (2nd yr with Trek) The fitter is the most experienced in the industry, has been with Trek Bikes for many years. So I have been moved a lot in position from my last bike (Giant Trinity Advanced) more forward. I had a successful 70.3 with the bike and only moved seat up a bit since. coming off the bike, initially my hamstrings were tight, but loosened with in a mile or so and felt good on the run, but then everything shut down.

That's a lot of IMs if you ask me. My guess is you've been in Z2 for so many years you've slowly lost the ability to run fast. I may be wrong but your numbers point that way. Talking about bricking between 7:50 and 8:30 is like saying should I run mid Z2 or high Z2. You need to avoid those gutter runs (and rides). If you stick with IMs I would tell you to run either really fast or really slow....but nothing between 7:30 and 9:00 per mile......with the main focus on really fast.

Without power or HR numbers it is really a shot in the dark. Lots of good advice here but I'd tell you to scratch an IM for 12-18 months and hammer out some sprint/olympic races with some faster intensity. Get fast again....then go back and do an IM late in 2015.

I bet you will find your run again.

would love to think it was just the race course, but this is not my 1st race breakdown.

So why not try some powercranks on a bike trainer? If you do not like them, return before 90 days for all your money back. There are so many that use them, but will never talk about it on ST since
they get attacked. Sure have not hurt my run.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

age might be a factor. i am (OK was) a runner but my run speed started falling off a cliff in my early 50's. I've noticed similar slowdowns in friends around the same age. But given your results, i suspect that you are a lot younger than that.

What would happen if you did mixed up your bricks, e.g some at 18-19 mph and 8.2 run pace, and some at 17-18 mph and 7:45/mi run pace?

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run well, run happy
george

1 IM per year, 2 if I go to Kona. I am also an IM AWA Gold for 2013 due to my Ironman 70.3 success. I run between a 1:25-1:40 on a 70.3. I am also a 2x 2nd placer in the state triathlon series in 3 yrs (didn't participate in 2012) which consist of sprint thru Half distance, 1st bike split always, and usually the 1st run spilt. I know how to find my speed, so I'm not sure the z2 is the issue, but I have put some thought into taking some time 12 mo or more off from this distance. then again, was also thinking of using this training from IMC and sticking IMM in between IM70.3 Worlds and Xterra Worlds. The thought process here was that maybe I was overtraining going into the Ironman, that recovering for 4 weeks, picking up speed for 70.3 and 2 week recover/taper to IM Maryland might make for a better IM RUN. Then 5 week recover/taper to Xterra Worlds.

I noticed the same thing with most folks getting into their 50's, they just run so slowly now.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks George, Thought of this too.

Thank you. Yes. your right....cant hurt. time to drop the cash on them.

Yea, 9 IMs is a lot. Based on all the above it may be you do too much each year and it's taken a toll on your body and fitness. If you can run a 1:25 at a HIM now but a 5 hour IM marathon something is way off.

Possibly. MY limited experience was going to shorter cranks and rotating my hips forward after going to a noseless saddle. I'm actually at least 1" lower in the front now but riding more open.

You are getting older now too. Maybe the long runs are beating your up. I did just 1 run of 20 miles last week to see how it would feel. I felt like I could have kept going if I wanted. What I got out of it was that I don't need to do really long runs. It actually sent me backwards in fitness because it impacted my bike rides the rest of the week and the quality of my runs.

I also think your taper is really, really drastic. You leaving a lot of fitness on the table. I'm probably at 2x the miles the last few weeks, but I'll still have very good form according to my PMC. It worked great in my 70.3 and open 1/2. I'm not sure if that's part of the issue, but it's probably not helping.

I don't think your long run should be more than 1/3 of your weekly mileage.

You weekly mileage is a little inconsistent. I only drop maybe 30% of my weekly mileage on recovery weeks and descend about 25-30% each of the last 3 weeks of a taper.

But I'm far from an expert on this. But I know guys with issues, and the experts haven't fixed them either.

Hard to really see your position from that photo. Did you bike position change? New bike? gear? new fit?


Bottom line - "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I think that's how the quote goes. Time to change something in your training and/or in you bike position. Test it at Olympci Distance. Don;t do any more IM's until it's resolved. Then move on to 70.3's before IM's again.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I think I looked like this with my 200mm cranks. I just went to 175s, and boy did it open up the hip angle. Has not seemed to do anything but really
help my run off the bike. So, you might want to try shorter cranks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I wonder if you're confusing me with the OP? I've never done a full IM.

I'm already on 165s (yep, I'm just that short... lol). Maybe I could come up in front a little to open up the hip angle, but I don't want to wreck my aero.