Sorry, if one does not look back at a race and say they gave it all they had, well, ...

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A friend of mine missed a Kona slot by 69 seconds but never got to "race" the two guys that finished ahead of him.//

Your friend got beat and now you want to retroactive change the rules of the race? He got beat, I don't see the issue, are you saying he dogged it because he couldn't see anyone? IF so, do you know that the guys that beat him didn't dog it either?


I know what you are getting at, and I agree that head to head is the best way to race. But seems like this was always a tt style start and everyone knew it going in, so what is the real issue? In these races you do your best to pace for your perfect race, if you dogged it because you got lazy, well probably didn't deserve that slot anyway.

Actually, on second read it's an F.

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Maybe AG starts would be a better idea like Vineman 70.3 and St. George 70.3

I don't touch on this but there's also the issue of pacing. The guys that started behind essentially knew what they were chasing. Any cycling time trialist will probably tell you it's an advantage to go off last. That's why the highest seeded athletes always go last. Yes, fastest time wins but I think you can argue it's not a level playing field. BTW, he's not making any excuses. I just don't think it's 1) fair or 2) in the spirit of competition not to have a mass start.

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Who cares. He didn't win the race. Why would he think he could win Kona?

Win and your in. Lose and you probably don't belong.

How did they know what they were chasing?

Eta: I totally get the whole "race" thing. I just don't know how someone who starts behind actually knows the exact split they must do to win a spot.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
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So why are you, if he's not?

If it's not fair, don't race races with rolling starts. If it's not in the "spirit" of competition, whatever the F that means, don't race races with rolling starts. It's really very easy!

He didn't go fast enough. Boo hoo. If this is the biggest thing you have to worry about, your life is really blessed!

C'mon, coach. Tell your athletes to start trying to increase their HR to near their max about 10k out from the finish line. Then with 1 mile left, try to hit a new max HR. Does the same thing and doesn't kill swimmers the process.

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Saying someone got lazy might be a little much. He might have run his perfect race but if they had been head to head towards the end he might have got that last dump of adrenaline. I agree that you know the rules going into race though.

I wonder why they can't keep it a TT start but at least have AG's go off together. They do it at the NYC Tri and it works well. You might not be exactly on the same time but its a lot closer.

If they would split up into waves they would have been in different wave groups anyway. Last names are too far apart. They still wouldn't have raced.

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The race has been the same as IMlou ever since it started. Why would your friend think it would be any different this year? It was even talked about a few weeks before the race on this forum as the most strategic way to race this one would be to start at the back of the swim line. I'm pretty sure your friend didn't even stick around to see if any slots would get rolled to his age group it at rolldowns. I was at awards and saw him walk out of the room and pretty sure he didn't come back in. He had a great race given the conditions. I was in that age group and personally thought him and Ben Hammer would be the guys who got the two slots going into the race, but after hearing the rant it sounds like he really didn't dot every i and cross every t to make sure he did everything he could to have the fastest time.

IMMT did it that way. It just creates a different problem, which is that the strong swimmers end up having to pick their way through a lot more people.

I also think with so many people wearing calf sleeves / long sleeve jerseys that body marking is nearly useless. So even with a mass start you'd have a tough time knowing if someone in your AG is ahead of you, unless you have a friend outside the race to track people for you.

Having people wear their numbers facing backwards on the run, as an alternative to body marking might help.

It is equally likely that your athlete had better conditions and still failed to beat his competitors. Most likely he had such similar race conditions compared to the competition that it didn't matter. He knew it was a mass start race when he signed up... sour grapes complaining about it now.

I am doing IM Louiseville.

I am a fast swimmer.

Typically:
I am first amateur after the swim.
3rd at the half way point on the bike
8th in to T2
30th at the end of the run

The time trial start gives me a whole new opportunity.....
I could seed myself so that I would be passing people the whole race. (Not just being passed).

But I am concerned about having to fight my way through 1,000s of recreational athletes.

Where should I seed myself?

I kind of agree. Hard to tell where you are at standing wise in a race. However, if he/she was really a minute behind, mostly likely they'd not be able to see those in front of them. Also with multi loop run course, chasing your opponents becomes even harder.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

With the old AG wave starts they'd still have to pick there way through. Unless the strong swimmers like showing up at 3am they would still have plenty of slow swimmers in front of them that show up early because they're worried about the cut off.

It seems that fast swimmers got the worst deal in the traditional mass start IMs. You ended up providing a draft and a moving target for all your competitors.

Age group waves are better psychologically in that you get to pass lots of people. But you typically don't catch too many quality athletes that you can legally draft (or pace) off.

This self seeded start might improve things for fast swimmers.
That is, if you don't get held up by thousands of super slow athletes.

I was comparing AG waves versus self-seeded rolling starts. The latter tend to be smoother -- at least in my experience, people self-seed pretty honestly with regards to how fast they swim.

I would seed myself dead last. You waste way less mental energy in the morning. Essentially a porta-potty is at your disposal at any moment, you don't have to be there at the crack of dawn. The post above is wrong IMO in regards to IMMT. Water is so dense, you think slip streaming on the bike is beneficial, it is way more beneficial in the swim. You might not have as good of rhythm but seriously the drafting will make up for it. My best swim ever came one of my last races as an amauter before becoming an "elite amatuer". In a crowd, complicated swim I pass so many people on the swim in was unreal. Made me feel like I was a legit swimmer even thought I was anything but.

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I get the point, but really in certain cases a mass start is impossible. Lake Placid when it was 1400-1600 was carnage, it only got worse til the rolling seeded start. Louisville and other river starts...how do you get 2700 people staged without having them float downstream?

Issue #2, how the hell do you know where you are on course, anyways. If you don't have someone who knows what they are doing while spotting and knows your competition to give you time checks, then it is tough, including people wearing compression socks with no AG on their leg. That followed by the ability to adjust your pace in the last 10k to run someone down, unless a seasoned pro it is pretty unlikely.

That being said anyone that went under 10 at IM Choo this year should get a slot to Kona regardless of what place they got.

This is actually quite easily solved and could be used in both short and long course. Unfortunately, I'm a nobody with zero power and influence.

At every race, at every distance, there are "racers" and there are "finishers". About me: I am a "finisher" when it comes to OA placing and a "racer" when it comes to AG placing.

There is absolutely zero reason why every race should not be started in that fashion. Yes, if the race is large enough, you can subdivide further. Essentially, this is an elite wave.

Example: 300 person local sprint triathlon. There were 4 waves: Men 44 and under. Men 45 and over. Women 44 and under. Women 45 and over. Three minutes between waves. OA winner was from 45+. Second place was from 44 and under, yet they never "raced".

I'd submit there are 50 "racers" in that race and 250 "finishers". Why not send off the first 50 (both men and women) and then wave sort the rest. The racers get to race and the finishers get to finish. The only rule is if you start in the "finishers" group, you aren't eligible for OA awards and, depending on the race size, AG awards.

In the IM scenario, you can start everyone dreaming of Kona in a mass start. Then, TT the rest. And, yes, if you magically have the race of your life starting in the TT group, you don't go to Kona. Let's be realistic, everyone knows if they are on the Kona bubble.

This adds one wave and maybe 10 minutes (if that) to any race.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

F for achievement or effort?