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Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout
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http://www.cyclingweekly.com/...mp;utm_medium=Social

The bikes tested were the Trek Madone, Specialized Venge Vias, Canyon Aeroroad, Cervelo S5, and the Giant Propel Advanced SL. You can click on the link to check their methodology. I wish they had an addendum detailing how each bike was setup. All I can do is take them at their word that each bike was "setup in as close a riding position to each other as possible."

What I found interesting was that while the Trek and the Specialized were basically identical and the Canyon and Cervelo were close, the Giant Propel was sloooowwww. Like.... 20-30 watts slower than the Madone/Venge. I don't really have an explanation as to why that would be without knowing more about their methodology or without observing the test.

....keep in mind this is at 45km/h so adjust accordingly.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I assume "aero-hoods" position is the pursuit position in the picture with the flat forearms. The most surprising result to me is that the difference between best and worst position runs from about 15 watts to 40 on the Giant. I am guessing it relates to the amount of drop more than an indication of anything related to the bike. Level forearms might be more important than I ever realized and I can certainly test this using the Chung method or roll-downs.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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You should test just to confirm it for yourself but I can tell you a lot of other people have tested and level forearms saves a significant amount of drag pretty consistently.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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...once again, if you can ride with your forearms level on the hoods, what's the point of the drops position then?

That just means the bars are set up too low, and probably don't have enough reach either (stupid "slam that stem"/compact bar mentality) :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Apr 24, 17 22:07
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
... I am guessing it relates to the amount of drop more than an indication of anything related to the bike. ...


Would be interesting to have seen the side-profile shots of each position or quote some coordinates. The integrated bars would have made it a challenge to produce equivalent positions, short of a lot of support.

Looking at the line of bikes, they have a surprising amount of spacers making me think these are not "as fitted", yet in the shot the rider looks to be riding the Giant with that many spacers.

If they are "as fitted" then the line-up pic suggests a bit of variation in dimensions. Can't really measure off this, but bike to bike its odd. The Trek looks to have more drop (certainly than the S5) and the Canyon appears to have a very long stem. All the same size frames?
Last edited by: cerebis: Apr 24, 17 22:37
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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there is a lot of flux in the relative performances depending on the position... suggests the results are indicative of rider position changes more than frame differences unless they have radically differently shaped bars, which even then makes the results relatively meaningless for the potential buyer. i guess maybe the different positions cause airflow interactions with the bars quite differently on each?
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Do cyclists actually use the drops? As far as I can tell they're only ever used for descending or cornering.

Looks like a mess of a test.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [georged] [ In reply to ]
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georged wrote:
Do cyclists actually use the drops? As far as I can tell they're only ever used for descending or cornering.

Ding ding. Drops are for descending.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I've also found level fore arms to be more aero than the drops, even with a slightly higher body position.

Tom A. wrote:
...once again, if you can ride with your forearms level on the hoods, what's the point of the drops position then?

That just means the bars are set up too low, and probably don't have enough reach either (stupid "slam that stem"/compact bar mentality) :-/

The drops are for descending, sprinting, cornering, leverage, holding position in a group, etc. So 90% of what a crit race does and 10% of what a triathlete does.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, the drops are essential when Descending, and especially when descending on less than perfect roads or at high speeds or in the rain, when being in the drops means that your hands won't slip no matter if it's wet or you hit a big bump while going through a switchback.

My take away from this aero shootout is to only look at the aero hoods and drop positions. Looking at the hoods position is like factoring in being on the pursuit bar for a TT aero test. So, for me, the Aeroroad won that one.

I do like the Trek, but I wish they'd tossed some dual mount EE brakes on the Canyon to get the brake housing more in line with the headtube.... or just used the disc version, because while I love my EE brakes, going back to the arguments for being in the drops presented above, the benefits of disc brakes share those same arguments. And the Canyon Aeroroad has the best geometry, because some us are slam those stems kind of people!

note: I took a friend's Propel and replaced the fork with a TCR Advanced fork (with the same oversized steerer tube to compliment that beautiful Giant carbon stem and horribly tiny headset bearings) and placed an EE brake on it. That Propel fork is a flexy flier and those stock (non-Fourier) vbrakes are horrible!! It rides much better now and a disc version with beefed up fork will be a welcome change

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Apr 25, 17 6:00
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
...once again, if you can ride with your forearms level on the hoods, what's the point of the drops position then?

That just means the bars are set up too low, and probably don't have enough reach either (stupid "slam that stem"/compact bar mentality) :-/

Have you ever sprinted or descended on a road bike?
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Aren't drops kinda the standard way to ride in a crit for safety reasons in a group? It's harder to lock bars / easier to control the bike in the drops especially in corners.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [jarret_g] [ In reply to ]
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Oh this should be good.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [jarret_g] [ In reply to ]
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jarret_g wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
...once again, if you can ride with your forearms level on the hoods, what's the point of the drops position then?

That just means the bars are set up too low, and probably don't have enough reach either (stupid "slam that stem"/compact bar mentality) :-/

Have you ever sprinted or descended on a road bike?

This thread is almost as if I'm talking to a bunch of triathletes about road bike bars...oh wait...never mind :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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For the first time.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:

This thread is almost as if I'm talking to a bunch of triathletes about road bike bars...oh wait...never mind :-/


Just my perception, but the prevalence of riding in the drops seems to be eroding at all levels of cycling. Modern hoods are so damned comfortable and easy to shift and brake from. It's just more comfortable to have your hands around a nice, chunky pistol-grip than a little round tube.

I think forearm-near-parallel hoods pursuit position is a very common position in the roadie toolbox these days. And it's not really about cockpit height. It's about dropping your body down to the cockpit.

I'm sort of old-school in a sense, coming from track, and I cringe watching entire Cat 5 crit fields cruising around in the hoods. But I think this is something that's not going away.




Last edited by: trail: Apr 25, 17 7:33
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Just my perception, but the prevalence of riding in the drops seems to be eroding at all levels of cycling.

Not sure if this a good trend or a bad trend, but your perception is dead on.

This seems to be happening at ALL levels of road cycling.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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It's about "slam that stem" leading to compromises.

The drops were intended to be the position that's the best control (which is why the brake levers are configured the way they are) AND the most aero. If you need to be on the hoods to get into that position, then your drops are too low. It's that simple. However, modern fashion dictates that to look "pro", you MUST have a super low headtube top and tons of drop, which makes doing that "hard"...

Here's some info from a guy you triathletes might listen to:

https://gerard.cc/...2-points-lubberding/ "What he observes a lot (and so do I since he pointed it out) is that people ride with their arms stretched out. Especially in the drops, this happens a lot. The main reason is that people (including pros) put their handlebars too low because they think it looks pro and it will give them a lower position."

https://gerard.cc/...07/29/body-vs-bar-1/ "The idea that you will sit lower if you just lower your bars is not true in most cases, other than the extreme (basically if you can only reach your bars with stretched arms..."

https://gerard.cc/...08/02/body-vs-bar-2/ "With the arms more vertical and the elbow more stretched, handling is less precise...In descents, etc, this doesn’t really come into play as people will lower their back for the corners and pedaling action is not at peak performance then anyway...Which is why in the past 30 years as the trend progressed to move handlebars down, the amount of time spent in the drops has decreased and most time is now spent on the hoods. Which in turn explains why the riders of today sit just as low as those 30 years ago, despite having dropped their bars by 4″/10cm."

https://gerard.cc/...s-bar-height-part-3/ "The aero frames are ALWAYS the fastest solution, even in mountainous terrain, so every pro taking their profession seriously and wanting to get to the finish the fastest should ride them at all times (except Roubaix)."

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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When you look at how close the results were for "aero hoods" vs the drops/hoods, my first thought is that they didn't control positions well enough. I'd take this all with a big grain of salt.


GreenPlease wrote:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/...mp;utm_medium=Social

The bikes tested were the Trek Madone, Specialized Venge Vias, Canyon Aeroroad, Cervelo S5, and the Giant Propel Advanced SL. You can click on the link to check their methodology. I wish they had an addendum detailing how each bike was setup. All I can do is take them at their word that each bike was "setup in as close a riding position to each other as possible."

What I found interesting was that while the Trek and the Specialized were basically identical and the Canyon and Cervelo were close, the Giant Propel was sloooowwww. Like.... 20-30 watts slower than the Madone/Venge. I don't really have an explanation as to why that would be without knowing more about their methodology or without observing the test.

....keep in mind this is at 45km/h so adjust accordingly.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
If you need to be on the hoods to get into that position, then your drops are too low. It's that simple. However, modern fashion dictates that to look "pro", you MUST have a super low headtube top and tons of drop, which makes doing that "hard"...

I'm not following you. The higher your cockpit is, the easier it is to get into the forearms parallel position in the hoods. Or the drops, for that matter. Being excessively "slammed" make both positions less comfortable and harder to manage.

But even if that's the intent, from the links you provided, it doesn't seem to be the reality. Bike and component manufacturers seems to have made the hoods more comfortable than the drops. That's why people ride in them, whether a super high gran fondo endurance bike or a #certifiedslammed Cat 4 crit bike. I don't think it's a result of positioning fads. Bike are getting higher in the front, broadly speaking, outside of roadie fashion cliques.

I agree that handling is more precise in the drops. That's clear. But super precise control isn't needed in most riding situations. Riding in the hoods is arguably more precise than riding *any* TT bike in the bullhorns, and TT bikes are fine to ride just about anywhere except fast, tight pack riding and crits (assuming competent rider).

I have some sympathy for your "get off my lawn" view of things, but I think you may be missing much broader and more powerful trends at play.
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
If you need to be on the hoods to get into that position, then your drops are too low. It's that simple. However, modern fashion dictates that to look "pro", you MUST have a super low headtube top and tons of drop, which makes doing that "hard"...


I'm not following you. The higher your cockpit is, the easier it is to get into the forearms parallel position in the hoods. Or the drops, for that matter. Being excessively "slammed" make both positions less comfortable and harder to manage.

But even if that's the intent, from the links you provided, it doesn't seem to be the reality. Bike and component manufacturers seems to have made the hoods more comfortable than the drops. That's why people ride in them, whether a super high gran fondo endurance bike or a #certifiedslammed Cat 4 crit bike. I don't think it's a result of positioning fads. Bike are getting higher in the front, broadly speaking, outside of roadie fashion cliques.

I agree that handling is more precise in the drops. That's clear. But super precise control isn't needed in most riding situations. Riding in the hoods is arguably more precise than riding *any* TT bike in the bullhorns, and TT bikes are fine to ride just about anywhere except fast, tight pack riding and crits (assuming competent rider).

I have some sympathy for your "get off my lawn" view of things, but I think you may be missing much broader and more powerful trends at play.

One mistake begets another...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Cycling Weekly is known over here as 'the comic', only partly because its weekly. ;) That issue had a bunch of 'aero' articles which were vaguely interesting. Bike reviews are always subjective. This one is is no different.

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Like every part of a road bike the handle bar is made to support any dictate ore answer during a race. Easy balance for both tasks supports efficency of the system and calm of the pilot. To reach this with variable hand positions over some hours is no drawback. Sitting upright on the hoods is good during a killing uphill afford ore to adjust speed with the air brake ..

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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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The logic makes sense, but the vast majority of elite and pro cyclists seem to be totally ignoring this.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: Interesting Aero Road Bike Shootout [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
The logic makes sense, but the vast majority of elite and pro cyclists seem to be totally ignoring this.

"Group think" can be tough to overcome...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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