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Injured Again, Input needed
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In a little over a year I've had 3 injuries where I had to take a least a month off. I'm pretty frustrated and hoping someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong or missing. I'm 26 and swam for a D1 college, so I'm used to pounding my body to the max to get the best results. Swimming is low impact so it's easy to get away with getting beat up all the time. I've learned triathlon is very different from swimming and even though it kills me mentally, you don't need to kill yourself all the time to get results. My coach has devised a good plan for me and I completely trust him. He was my college swim coach and is a pro triathlete. We do not live close to each other so all our interactions are on the phone or online. I do not think I am over training and none of my injuries have been when we started to increase mileage (we've slowly built up mileage and these injuries have popped up out of nowhere). Generally, I swim about 9k-13k/week, bike 80-130 mpw, run 15-30 mpw. I want to run more because I feel that is my biggest limiter but my injuries are preventing me from making any progress on my running. Here are my injuries to date:

- fractured my talus bone in late 2011/early 2012. Started bothering me on a treadmill run with some 1 min pickups. Finished the run and was limping a bit afterward. The next two days were pretty awful. Eventually got an x-ray that revealed the fracture. No running for ~2 months. Biked a little but mainly swam and did some water running
- Posterior tibilias (september 2012). Same foot as before and my foot started giving me issues during a run. Stopped half way through the run and rested a few days (stretched and did some strengthening exercises) but didn't get any better. Went and saw a pt and found my posterior tibilias was extremely tight which was giving me the foot pain. Also found my hip flexors were pretty weak as well. Went through about 4-5 weeks of pt and eventually was pain free. I stopped training while I was going through pt due to needing a break and I was buying a house and doing a bunch of renovations to it before moving in. Took about 3 months off and started training again around christmas 2012.
- About 3 weeks ago, I was doing a 6 mile run around my neighborhood with 6 x 200m sprints. Most of my running had been just base easy miles this year. I had done this same workout about 2-3 weeks prior and was one of my few runs with any kind of speed. I noticed something was giving me a bit of pain causing me to limp while running in my left leg (other leg than the two previous injuries). I ran a few more times that week but it didn't get any better. I stopped running and did limited biking for the past 2 weeks and it didn't get any better (stretched/strengthened just about every muscle I could think of or find on the internet). Went to see a chiro yesterday, and he thinks I have a stress fracture in my tibia and possibly something going on with my patella that's causing pain. Didn't take a x-ray as he didn't think it was worth it but said to give it another 2 weeks of no running and come back to see where I am. I have noticed some improvements in the past few days but not 100%.


All that said, all my injuries have happened while running and I run mainly on asphalt roads. I'm trying to figure out what are possible causes of my issues. I want to be pro-active this time when I start running again so I'm hoping someone might give me a few ideas. Things I can come up with:


- Running form - I adopted the natural running style about 2 years ago. I found last summer that I was still overstriding so this year I've really shortened my stride and run with 88 or higher cadence (depending on speed). Maybe I need to get some more analysis on my form.
- Stretching/foam rolling/strength - i think this was the issue with the posterior tibialis injury. Since resuming training over christmas, I've made a big effort to stretch, foam roll, strenghten hip flexors every day.
- running surfaces - I mainly run on asphalt surfaces. Maybe I need to do my easy runs at the track or on a treadmill to limit the pounding. Thoughts on this?
- Running shoes - I run in newton gravity's. I can't seem to find any reason why they would be causing me issues. I'm willing to switch but I don't want to switch just try something else unless someone can indentify why the shoes are giving me issues and what other shoes will help me. My current shoes only have 50 miles on them.
- Finding a chiro/PT to see every a month or so. How many of you see a chiro or PT every so often just to get a massage or relieve any aches/pain you might have?
- ?????? (something else I'm missing)


Any help is greatly appreciated.


Cliff notes: injured again, what am I doing wrong?










blog
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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My n=1 experiences would tell you you are running too fast.

After 20+ years if bike racing, I picked up tri's in 2009 and promptly injured my Achilles (which led to other issues too long to detail). Did nothing in 2010 and finally started running again that fall. In March 2011, ITBS kicked in. Wrecked that season....

Really worked in my running form last year which improved dramatically, but just as I was peaking for a HIM last year, ITBS flared up. Got through the HIM, but then the Achilles shows back up.

Since December, I have been following the BarryP plan (search the forum if you are unfamiliar with it) and strongly adhering to the paces from the MacMillan Pace Calculator.

I have come to believe that I was simply running too hard and too fast in the past. Your body is likely not ready for the hard efforts you are putting it through. I am spending this season running significantly slower than last year and it is helping. I am currently at roughly my weekly mileage I was doing just before my HIM (~30 mpw) and (so far) I am not breaking down. Last year, I was pushing almost every run. Yeah, my long runs would be slower than my other runs, but every week I was trying to run faster than the previous week's long run.

Again,this is my n=1 experience, but something to consider.

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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Your non-swimming history is not obvious from the post, but I'm guessing you don't have much sport besides swimming. If thats the case, you can't do that sort of volume on the bike and with running and not expect injuries. As you recognize, swimming is low impact and is nothing like bike/run. You're currently doing a lot of volume for this time of year, and unless you've been doing bike/run for several years, it's too much. I recommend sprint tri's for a newbie, going to olympics, 70.3, then 140.6 over the next 3 seasons. And, for many people, that's still too quick.

Another thing is stretching and strenghtening exercises for various muscles like medial glutes, medial quads, some core work, shoulders, back. All of that takes 60+ minutes a day if you intend on doing full IM which, based on your volume, it looks like you're training for. Most people say they don't have enough time for that. Well, thn perhaps 70.3 or Oly is more appropriate. I know you said you do stretching/strengthening. What does your routine consist of?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Madone 5 (training)
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Last edited by: mikegarmin4: Mar 10, 13 13:46
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
- fractured my talus bone in late 2011/early 2012.
- Posterior tibilias (september 2012).
- About 3 weeks ago,

All that said, all my injuries have happened while running

- Running form - I adopted the natural running style about 2 years ago. I found last summer that I was still overstriding so this year I've really shortened my stride and run with 88 or higher cadence (depending on speed). Maybe I need to get some more analysis on my form.

Why did you adopt the "natural" running form, and what do you mean by that? what was your running form/history previous to this?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Went to see a chiro yesterday, and he thinks I have a stress fracture in my tibia and possibly something going on with my patella that's causing pain. Didn't take a x-ray as he didn't think it was worth it but said to give it another 2 weeks of no running and come back to see where I am. I have noticed some improvements in the past few days but not 100%.

So where do you have pain? Something hear the patella would be a HIGH place on the tibia for a fracture. Stress fractures in the tibia tend to be in the distal third of it, IIRC.
Can you hop up and down on it w/o pain? That's my go-to test for a stress fracture. NOTE: I am not a doctor. (I have had a bunch of fractures).

Per the run surface - get off the asphalt and onto trails, dirt, sand, grass, treadmill. You can put the treadmill at a slight (half to two percent) incline if the posterior tibial tendon isn't bugging you (if it is the hill will make that worse), as that will lessen the impact.

What are you wearing for shoes?

Maybe rroof will chime in.


maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Not much to add. Classic overtaining issues (although talar fractures are pretty rare - usually the result of more high impact/severe trauma).
Should be seeking some local medical advice from someone who can "put it all together" (from diagnosis/imaging, treatment, rehab plan, maybe even a little coaching).

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still working on the med to heal fractures (not the tincture of time med you have ;-). In addition to the personal benefits of it, I am convinced it is worth a Nobel prize.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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tigerchik wrote:
I'm still working on the med to heal fractures (not the tincture of time med you have ;-). In addition to the personal benefits of it, I am convinced it is worth a Nobel prize.

That would be nice - and no playing with those evil biphosphonates. I like the stainless steel or titanium approach to fracture healing when needed as well ;-)

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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I grew up swimming and playing soccer pretty seriously. I also ran track in middle school once but swimming/soccer were more of a priority so I never took it further. I played on a pretty serious club soccer team for most of my teenage years. So we ran quite a bit for soccer players (relatively speaking here and nothing like the volume true runners do). We had to run a 2 mile under 12:30 when we were 13 or 14. Now I know that's nothing compared to those serious runners but that's pretty hard for non runners at that age. I think I ran an 11:30 at one point. I gave up soccer during high school to focus on swimming. Did some running here and there as cross training throughout high school and college but nothing structured. Once I graduated college, I ran here and there just to stay in shape (~5-6 mpw). Took up triathlon in early 2011 and started biking and attempting to run more. At that time, I hated running as I thought it was boring. Up this point, I had always had issues with shin splints. I never had anyone teach me what proper running form was either. I was just running how I always did and never knew if it was good or bad (overstriding, heel striking, hunched over). I was a completely inefficient runner and my legs would hate me the next day after running. I think I stumbled upon mid-foot striking, natural running, and newton on this site around this time in 2011. Did some research, talked to a few tri friends, and bought a pair of the newton terra momentum shoes and started changing my form (midfoot strike, shorter strides, higher cadence, run tall). I did what Newton and my local running store tells you to do, and went a ran a mile the first time. I slowly ramped up to get used to the new form/shoes and was eventually running 10-20 mpw with zero issues. I started to like running as it was a stress reliever me and I wasn't nearly as sore afterward. I also felt much more efficient after changing my form. I was able spend all of 2011 injury free. I was living in Pittsburgh at the time where I did most of my runs on a trail (fine gravel) or at the track. I didn't do much running on roads. It wasn't until I moved to florida (late 2011) where I started having issues and that's when I started running on mainly asphalt (there aren't any trails around here and it's hard to pass up running next to the beach).

I'm training for olympics ( also doing a few sprints) and planning to peak at age group nationals. Not planning on any HIM or IM's this year. I don't consider myself a newbie. I did a 2:04 at St Anthony's last year. Best 10k is 39:43 and my best 40k bike is a 1:03. My swim is typically 18-19 min.

My routine varies but mainly consists of bridges (both legs and single leg... also add in a band), lunges, squats (both body weight), side steps w/ a band, planks, various ab work for upper and lower abs. Stretching/foam rolling I make sure to hit all the major muscle's in the legs (hamstrings, quads, glutes, hip flexors, calves, IT band). Typically, I will my do some strength and then stretch every night. One day a week I have a whole workout devoted (60-90 min) to strength at gym.

Hope this answers your questions.

blog
Last edited by: stevej: Mar 10, 13 16:05
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Almost definitely the cause is that your D1 swim cardio is far exceeding your body's bone/ligamentous ability to withstand pounding of running at the speeds you're going.

You gotta build up the running slowly. If you haven't played running field sports regularly or run in your past, you pretty much have to build up slowly like a noob runner even if you have the cardio AND desire to run 5 minute miles in training all the time. Or else you get stress fractures and ligament strains just as you're doing now.

Your best bet: a daily low-volume and much lower-speed run plan, probably the BarryP plan. You shouldn't be doing any hard interval work until you know you can run the mpw at an easier aerobic pace without getting injured. I'll bet your D1 swim mentality of intervals all the time, the harder the better, is giving you some problems.

At the same time, your coach should be all over this. If his advice is still causing these injuries, might want to re-evaluate with him the run plan.
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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It's very hard to describe. It first started out as discomfort in the hip/quad area but I couldn't pin point it. Any kind of pounding (running/hopping) was trigger it but I still couldn't pinpoint exactly where. Then I found my knee was also bothering me and would occasionally feel the discomfort shoot down my shin and up my quad throughout the day. After several days, I found the inital discomfort comes from just below the knee cap and also on the iniside of the knee (anterior). I do the hop test as well. And I've failed it for the past 2 weeks. That's my test if I'm ready to run or not. Today it doesn't hurt nearly as bad as Thursday did.

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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Get good shoes - have someone knowledgeable help you identify what type. You've described pain in a bunch of different places. Stuff can radiate up/down kinetic chains. Weak glutes, for instance, can cause knee pain. An arch collapsing can put stress on a medial knee. Shoooooes.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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tigerchik wrote:
Get good shoes - have someone knowledgeable help you identify what type. You've described pain in a bunch of different places. Stuff can radiate up/down kinetic chains. Weak glutes, for instance, can cause knee pain. An arch collapsing can put stress on a medial knee. Shoooooes.
I went from injured to not injured inside of one week just by changing my shoes. I've also scrapped the run portion of my IM plan and using Barry P's plan. If I have to walk it, I'll walk it.... (and I doubt I'll be walking!)
Last edited by: racin_rusty: Mar 10, 13 16:07
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Re: Injured Again, Input needed [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Almost definitely the cause is that your D1 swim cardio is far exceeding your body's bone/ligamentous ability to withstand pounding of running at the speeds you're going.


+1. As Jason Fitzgerald says: "don't let your engine outpace your chassis".

I'd also add that a good strength / conditioning program can do wonders for injury prevention. You can go to a gym, but I've found body weight exercises and (particularly) hill sprints work fine if you are, like me, not a gym person. (Edit: I reread your post upthread that you are doing strength stuff most nights and going to the gym once a week. Make sure that you vary your workout and don't forget the hill sprints.)

Personally, I use the book "Bare Naked Strength Training for Distance Runners" by Rick Morris at Running Planet ( http://www.runningplanet.com/...s-print-edition.html ).

There's also some really good resources at the Strength Running website (http://strengthrunning.com/).
Last edited by: SpaceKitty: Mar 10, 13 16:34
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