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Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it!
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Going to pursue making this vision a reality. And I'm going to do it right. Plan on using A2 tunnel in NC sometime early next year. Sourcing of the bikes will likely be the biggest obstacle to this.

So this thread is #1 for that, bike donors. I will pay for the tunnel time, professional and fast shipping back and forth, professional mechanic to assemble and dis-assemble and the testing will be done with proper protocols. (Same wheels, same aerobar set-up when not proprietary, close or exact frame sizes in all models when normalized for stack and reach, cables will be addressed, pedal position, set-up, etc).

#2 thing this thread is for is to get some input about what exactly YOU want to see. I will be doing full yaw sweeps on everything, in and out, out and in, probably out to 20 degrees. Wheels will be disc rear, Zipp or Hed or maybe both, front will be deep, 1080 or Jet 9 or maybe both.

Bikes to be tested:
1. P2C, P3C, P4 (got the P2 and 3, looing for a 4)
2. Trinity Advanced SL - got it
3. Specialized Shiv
4. Trek Speed Concept
5. Kestrel 4000 maybe
6. QR CD 0.1
7. Felt DA
8. Spec Transition
9. Plasma 2 and 3
10. Cannondale Slice got it
11. Fuji D6
12. Jamis Xenith T1
13. Ceepo Venom
14. Trek TTX maybe
15. Orbea Ordu
16. New Guru?
17. Typical round tubed roadie with clips
18. Zipp 2001
19. New Titanflex Stretch
20. Look 596


Yes, an ambitious list for sure, this is why I need your help. Not sure how many if any manufacturers would be interested in donating bikes to this venture. If you have one of these bikes in somewhere around the 54-56 size and want to help make this happen please PM me or email david@endorphinfitness.com.

Results will be comprehensive and for sale after this test. Bike donors to recieve free copies of course as well as free copies of any future test I do. I have in mind to test aero helemts in the same manner. All currently available helmets on an upper body mannequin and alone, tested flat as well as tail up through a full yaw sweep.

I have access to a bunch of these bikes already but some are harder to get hands on than others of course. Really looking for a Shiv, new Trek as they will be the toughest to get and I won't be doing this test with any glaring omissions. Ok if I can't find a Plasma 2, I still go ahead, but not having a Shiv or another major and recent entry into this field will really squash the excitement I think this testing will create. And yes, this is a commercial venture but really I just want to know and be able to cover the costs of finding out. Probably looking at a 10k investment on my part to get this done. This is my project and not affiliated with the company I work for, if that matters.

Let me know if you want to help. Thanks for looking.

Dave Luscan
www.endorphinfitness.com
Last edited by: Dave Luscan: Oct 29, 09 10:40
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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You'd get lots of interest from the UK if you included the planet X frame which is VERY popular over here. It also goes under a lot of other names, but looks like this:

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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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"...
Results will be comprehensive and for sale after this test..."

...shortly after which they will be available for free on every tri and TT related forum etc..."

I don't see you making money on this one!


#######
My Blog
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]
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So why not sell the results beforehand to help pay for it all?

Id be in for a resonable fee....
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [sub-3-dad] [ In reply to ]
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Sell it to a magazine?
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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As far as the making money part of it, I am pretty sure I can cover the costs of this with sales of the results. If I make a profit, great....I'll run some more tests with helmets, aero cranks, hydration options etc.

As to how to sell it so that it doesn't appear on every bulletin board, chat room and website within 24 hours...well there are ways to do this. If this project comes to fruition, rest assured I will not be "winging it" in regards to tunnel protocols OR the best way to protect the results. Tunnel experts and legal experts will both be in the mix from Day 1. Which I guess is today.

I forgot to mention, significant ST discounts will apply.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for taking the initiative for getting this going!

I don't have any bikes in those sizes that I can lend, but if you're doing pre-orders for the results to help funding, I'd definitely be interested.

Hope this works out..
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Andrew69] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

I like Andrew69's suggestion. I'd become a "subscriber" or "sponsor" up front in exchange for the results. Of course, it puts a bit more pressure on you to see it through, but it would get you some operating capital.

.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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I think someone proposed something like this before recently. They mentioned people chipping in. I'm in for $29.52 up front once you know it's going to happen.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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great idea! How about going one step further--you'll be testing all the flagship, why not test all the entry level bikes from the same manufacturers. It would be interesting to see a comparison. Also, how about adding Kuota?

______________________________________

"thoughts become things, choose the good ones"
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [That Guy] [ In reply to ]
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the kuota has already been proven to be a brick. Why test what we know is already a third tier frame?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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For purely selfish reasons, I ride one of those bricks--and yes, it's the entry level brick.

______________________________________

"thoughts become things, choose the good ones"
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Are you borrowing the bikes, or do you get to keep them? If they are truly "donated to science", then you *might* be able to cover costs by selling the inventory of bikes after testing. I also think the best market is to sell the data to individual bike shops. Make the data proprietary and something which can't be shared, so each shop has to purchase/license/subscribe. Shops which carry the "best" bikes could then further justify a premium for the "best"/"fastest" bikes, and they would have the data to back it up. So that is how I see the $$$ side of it.

I wouldn't consider purchasing data of either the bike alone or of you on the bike. Although, on second though, it might prove useful for me to calculate how many watts I need against you at the VA State TT Champs next year, at least if you are the rider ;-) Sure, I'm good for $20 in order to know your drag information, and I only want the data from one bike!
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have any wind tunnel testing experience? Any aerodynamics expertise?

I would think you could get fairly far with this if you had a comprehensive test protocol and data reduction proposal prior to going to test. Personally, I would write a proposal detailing these items - and the intended data set you plan to present "for sale" - to solicit greater participation.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Old school fast frames? Zipp and softride?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, I'm good for $20 in order to know your drag information, and I only want the data from one bike!
In Reply To:


Cheap, selfish bastard!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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One other thought; how are you going to get all the bikes set up the same if you're borrowing them? Presumabley it will mean steerers sticking out as you can't cut them to length.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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no mag (no american mag aside from consumer reports) would purchase the results. us tri mags are a monopoly and are biased towards those that purchase advertising space in them

------------------------------------------------------------
Adrenaline TriSport | Boulder, Colorado
Close Out Sales
Your Front Range source for Felt, Argon18 and Blue Bikes
| TYR | DeSoto | Skirt | Rocket Science Sports | Speedo | Spiuk | Zipp | Mizuno | Brooks | Zeal | Aquasphere |
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to see you add a Look 596 to your test. Yes?

.
.
Paul
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [596] [ In reply to ]
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add a Look 596 to your test.
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X2!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I have in mind to test aero helemts in the same manner. All currently available helmets on an upper body mannequin and alone, tested flat as well as tail up through a full yaw sweep.
Ambitious project. You should also test with the head turned to the side.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
One other thought; how are you going to get all the bikes set up the same if you're borrowing them? Presumabley it will mean steerers sticking out as you can't cut them to length.

That's a good point, easily overlooked. I wonder if it would be 'best' to have a spacer stack and some clay, and normalize it to ~3 CM of spacers above the stem. Not optimal, but better than having inconsistencies. Those aero spacers aren't particularly expensive, and would lower the effect a bit.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Andrew V] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
One other thought; how are you going to get all the bikes set up the same if you're borrowing them? Presumabley it will mean steerers sticking out as you can't cut them to length.

That's a good point, easily overlooked. I wonder if it would be 'best' to have a spacer stack and some clay, and normalize it to ~3 CM of spacers above the stem. Not optimal, but better than having inconsistencies. Those aero spacers aren't particularly expensive, and would lower the effect a bit.

Personally, I'd only be happy seeing that sort of set-up on a bike that was originally designed to have spacers. The Shiv has deliberately put the top of the stem level with the top of the top tube.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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Good point. Perhaps it would be wise to test 1 bike (that uses spacers) with and without them on top, and get a rough conversion factor, which can then be applied. Either way, aero spacers should be used.

It'd difficult to properly test that area - it's very dirty air if you use a front bottle and with arms, but very clean on a solo bike. I know that, in general, bike alone is a good stand-in for bike+person, but in that area, I'm not so sure.
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Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Andrew V] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Good point. Perhaps it would be wise to test 1 bike (that uses spacers) with and without them on top, and get a rough conversion factor, which can then be applied. Either way, aero spacers should be used.

It'd difficult to properly test that area - it's very dirty air if you use a front bottle and with arms, but very clean on a solo bike. I know that, in general, bike alone is a good stand-in for bike+person, but in that area, I'm not so sure.

You can calculate what the effect of a given height of cylinders would be when placed in the free stream. As you say though; that'll change if you put stuff in to disrupt it.

I'm assuming that the tunnel testing will be done without a rider as I doubt there are many riders who could hold a single position on different bikes over the time it would take.
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