Importance of kick training in triathlon

Sep 28, 16 8:54

Post #1 of 43 (4402 views)

Run / biker here looking for swim advice :)

I just did my first IM. I swam 1:09 at IM WI. Most would say that's not bad. But I was first a runner and had the 3rd fastest bike split in the field that day so my swim is not up to par with my bike / run. I get that as a triathlete that started swimming at 32 years old that my swim may never be up to par with the other disciplines.

Now that IM is over and I'm bored I've swam with my daughter's swim team the last couple nights. Just their first set for now...lol. They do a lot of kicking and a few hundred yards about kills me. I'm really curious as to how much a stronger kick may benefit my swimming. And I'm not saying from a kicking perspective over IM distance, but just the addition of that specific swim / core fitness gained through kicking. I have a feeling lots of kicking simply creates a better swimmer and though we don't kick much if any over IM that being a better kicker = a better swimmer = a better swim split. However, I've also found that kick sets during run / bike training are HARD!

Interested in hearing some thoughts. Hope to soon graduate to swimming more than the first set with the swim team and maybe soon keeping up to the 12 year old girls!

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 9:32

Post #2 of 43 (4355 views)

Kicking makes you a better swimmer period. For lots of reasons. Even if you don't kick much when you race, you'll still be a much better swimmer for having kick trained.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 9:45

Post #3 of 43 (4327 views)

Would you care to elaborate on "lots of reasons?" I'd just enjoy the discussion. Thanks.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 9:48

Post #4 of 43 (4320 views)

Swimming is about efficiency in both propulsion and drag. Learning to kick better helps both, and developing those muscles allows you to swim better with less effort and fatigue. I can also help teach you body position. Also, you are working more than hip flexors. You are using you quads, glutes and using your core to stabilize yourself.

I also would suggest learning dolphin kick, breaststroke kick, as well as kicking on your back (no board, arms over head) and learn the other 3 strokes and do some IM sets, even during the regular tri season. It makes you a better swimmer. I can do a 100IM, and then when I do a 100 Free afterwards, my stroke is sometimes just a little crisper... for lack of a better word.

To swim better, you need to learn to swim like a swimmer. It's no surprise that while I don;t swim nearly as well as I did in high school, I performed comparatively well at both of my 70.3's this year because they were NWS and the last had pretty good swells that hurt more "non swimmers".

Sure, it's not a big difference in time, but in the end, unless your winning world championships or even your AG all the time, don't you want to be a better triathlete and enjoy all 3 disciplines more? If so, then why not become a better all around swimmer.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 9:57

Post #5 of 43 (4295 views)

There are many more places to focus on than a kick for TRIATHLETES. You are NOT a swimmer, and their events are less than 4 minutes for the most part. You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either. Here's an excellent source for info on what we should do from one of the best swim coaches for triathletes. Pay particular attention to episode number 9.

https://itunes.apple.com/...26/id1080467712?mt=2

Gary Geiger
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Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:04

Post #6 of 43 (4271 views)

ggeiger wrote:

You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either.

No, but a distance runner and/or triathlete should steal some of the things that Bolt does to improve their running. Adding in sprints and strides will make anyone who runs more efficient. Someone who ignores them will not be as efficient, and thus will be slower for the same effort level.

Same as kicking.

Ignore them at your own peril.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:05

Post #7 of 43 (4268 views)

ggeiger wrote:

There are many more places to focus on than a kick for TRIATHLETES. You are NOT a swimmer, and their events are less than 4 minutes for the most part. You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either. Here's an excellent source for info on what we should do from one of the best swim coaches for triathletes. Pay particular attention to episode number 9.

https://itunes.apple.com/...26/id1080467712?mt=2

Gary I would say there are times of the year where you train like a triathlete. At other times of year, it is worth training like a swimmer and other times training like a runner. You can't do that all year, but you can part of the year.

One point not brought is a good kick not only adds more propulsion and better streamline at no additional aerobic cost, but when you get the timing right, the feet provide a solid anchor for your upper body to work against when applying power. Difference between a baseball player, golfer or tennis pro trying to hit a ball standing on a slippery rotating swivel vs hitting with feet anchored on solid land.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:10

Post #8 of 43 (4258 views)

All I can say is do you see Potts kicking at the front of the pack? Ledecky at anything over 400 until the end? There is a tremendous cost and for a triathlete the benefit is minimal. Yes, swimmers kick hard and more so as the event gets shorter. I suggest that there are MANY more beneficial places to concentrate than a facet of the swim that will count for at most 5% propulsion. Listen to Gerry Rodriguez as he really does a great job in showing what we as triathletes need. Sure, go ahead and do kick sets with the kids for now, and then wonder why you still don't swim any faster next year when you do 2.4.

devashish_paul wrote:

ggeiger wrote:

There are many more places to focus on than a kick for TRIATHLETES. You are NOT a swimmer, and their events are less than 4 minutes for the most part. You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either. Here's an excellent source for info on what we should do from one of the best swim coaches for triathletes. Pay particular attention to episode number 9.

https://itunes.apple.com/...26/id1080467712?mt=2

Gary I would say there are times of the year where you train like a triathlete. At other times of year, it is worth training like a swimmer and other times training like a runner. You can't do that all year, but you can part of the year.

One point not brought is a good kick not only adds more propulsion and better streamline at no additional aerobic cost, but when you get the timing right, the feet provide a solid anchor for your upper body to work against when applying power. Difference between a baseball player, golfer or tennis pro trying to hit a ball standing on a slippery rotating swivel vs hitting with feet anchored on solid land.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:12

Post #9 of 43 (4252 views)

Your comparison is flawed. If you want a relative comparison, then you should be working on your track starts.

marklemcd wrote:

ggeiger wrote:

You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either.

No, but a distance runner and/or triathlete should steal some of the things that Bolt does to improve their running. Adding in sprints and strides will make anyone who runs more efficient. Someone who ignores them will not be as efficient, and thus will be slower for the same effort level.

Same as kicking.

Ignore them at your own peril.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:19

Post #10 of 43 (4235 views)

ggeiger wrote:

Your comparison is flawed. If you want a relative comparison, then you should be working on your track starts.

marklemcd wrote:

ggeiger wrote:

You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either.

No, but a distance runner and/or triathlete should steal some of the things that Bolt does to improve their running. Adding in sprints and strides will make anyone who runs more efficient. Someone who ignores them will not be as efficient, and thus will be slower for the same effort level.

Same as kicking.

Ignore them at your own peril.

That's not true. A triathlete or distance runner has no track start. But they do run, just as Bolt runs. Yup, you don't kick much in an ironman, and you don't sprint in a marathon, but practicing those things will make you a better swimmer/runner. Should either be a primary component? Heck no. If you're doing 4-5 swim sets a week is it beneficial to add in a small amount of kicking. Yup.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:22

Post #11 of 43 (4228 views)

my opinion is, training like a swimmer or biker or runner is rarely ever the way to go for a triathlete. Even if off season, when doing swim or run focus.... the simple maintenance work in the other 2 sport make you very different from those individual sport.

As for kicking. It s great to have a strong kick... it will help in tons of situation and will make you a better swimmer. So if your a age group triathlete that swim 7-9 times a week 25 000 30 000m/week, there is absolutely room to work on your kick. But if you are the more normal age group or pro that i work with and go to the pool 2, 3 or 5 times a week....6000-12 000m/week... there is minimal place for the kick. There is way to developed very good level of swimming with triathlete without ever passing much time kicking in training. it s a simple matter of priority.

Learn to kick for position and balance and to support your stroke. That need to be done and learned. But do not waste time building ''fitness'', propulsion from kicking is meaningless in triathlon.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:25

Post #12 of 43 (4222 views)

Hey Gary. I think you missed the part in my post about developing a strong anchor with your feet/fins. Ledecky, Potts, they have that and the perfect synchronization with the upper body. You can't get that without kick training....not just flutter board, but kick on side or back, on stomach, dolphin kick on front and on back. all without flutter board. Eventually you can get to a similar efficient 2 beat as good pros, but you can't get there without training to properly use the entire leg from hip to toe while timing with core. If you can get to 5 percent better times, that is still 1.5 min off a half IM swim. It takes. A lot of effort to take 1.5 min off your bike and run too.

ggeiger wrote:

All I can say is do you see Potts kicking at the front of the pack? Ledecky at anything over 400 until the end? There is a tremendous cost and for a triathlete the benefit is minimal. Yes, swimmers kick hard and more so as the event gets shorter. I suggest that there are MANY more beneficial places to concentrate than a facet of the swim that will count for at most 5% propulsion. Listen to Gerry Rodriguez as he really does a great job in showing what we as triathletes need. Sure, go ahead and do kick sets with the kids for now, and then wonder why you still don't swim any faster next year when you do 2.4.

devashish_paul wrote:

ggeiger wrote:

There are many more places to focus on than a kick for TRIATHLETES. You are NOT a swimmer, and their events are less than 4 minutes for the most part. You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either. Here's an excellent source for info on what we should do from one of the best swim coaches for triathletes. Pay particular attention to episode number 9.

https://itunes.apple.com/...26/id1080467712?mt=2

Gary I would say there are times of the year where you train like a triathlete. At other times of year, it is worth training like a swimmer and other times training like a runner. You can't do that all year, but you can part of the year.

One point not brought is a good kick not only adds more propulsion and better streamline at no additional aerobic cost, but when you get the timing right, the feet provide a solid anchor for your upper body to work against when applying power. Difference between a baseball player, golfer or tennis pro trying to hit a ball standing on a slippery rotating swivel vs hitting with feet anchored on solid land.

[/quot

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:52

Post #13 of 43 (4168 views)

If you already knew the answer, why did you even ask?

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:54

Post #14 of 43 (4155 views)

I didn't ask the question.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:58

Post #15 of 43 (4145 views)

Dev, I got your point, but there are usually much more efficient places to put efforts. We are not doing ITU swims where it is important to surge. You are right, when kicking, use no board and I would add a center mount snorkel. That said, yardage and SPEED, not kick drills will make a swimmer fast, especially if he is already 1:05. Gerry has some awesome points in his podcasts, and he's one open water swim coach that as worked with a large percentage of pro triathletes. But why listen to guys like him? ;-).

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 10:59

Post #16 of 43 (4138 views)

apologies then.
But your comment is a good one in that triathletes do not swim fast enough. 12.5 and all out 25s make one fast.

Last edited by: ggeiger: Sep 28, 16 11:01

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

FindinFreestyle

Sep 28, 16 13:09

Post #17 of 43 (4032 views)

cmscat50 wrote:

Would you care to elaborate on "lots of reasons?" I'd just enjoy the discussion. Thanks.

A properly timed same side kick counterbalances the disruptive nature of the strongest portion of the pull. It allows more of the pulling force to vector backwards, propelling your forward, as opposed to twisting you or moving you side to side.

Triathletes should develop their kick timing and not worry about their kick propulsion.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 13:12

Post #18 of 43 (4016 views)

FindinFreestyle wrote:

cmscat50 wrote:

Would you care to elaborate on "lots of reasons?" I'd just enjoy the discussion. Thanks.

A properly timed same side kick counterbalances the disruptive nature of the strongest portion of the pull. It allows more of the pulling force to vector backwards, propelling your forward, as opposed to twisting you or moving you side to side.

Triathletes should develop their kick timing and not worry about their kick propulsion.

Yaaas!

And this is NOT achieved by kick only sets.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 15:26

Post #19 of 43 (3904 views)

FindinFreestyle wrote:

cmscat50 wrote:

Triathletes should develop their kick timing and not worry about their kick propulsion.

My experience has been in a wetsuit legal swim that my best efficiency is accomplished with a well timed 2 beat kick. When I try a 4 beat or 6 beat kick in a pool it goes fine, but with a wetsuit in a longer event it just doesn't feel right and the timing is off. Any idea why that would be?

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 16:26

Post #20 of 43 (3852 views)

I swam a little over 10 minutes faster than you in the same race & I have a no-beat kick. I don't kick. I don't even kick the hands that hit my feet. While it might be necessary for some to kick to maintain body position, having a sufficient kick is not necessary for you to improve your swim time. Your time is better spent improving body position & catch, than working on generating propulsion from your legs in the pool.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 16:35

Post #21 of 43 (3836 views)

Quote:

You don't train like Usain Bolt for running either

That's so far off the mark it's absurd.

Quote:

Sure, go ahead and do kick sets with the kids for now, and then wonder why you still don't swim any faster next year when you do 2.4.

I'll take that bet for $100.

You should just stop since it's obvious you nothing about training swimmers. Or wait since you've got it figured out, I've got a better idea. We bet on outcomes, say $500-$1k.

We each take 2 triathletes, you can train them your way for the swim portion and I'll train them my way which includes kicking in almost every workout. Winner takes all at the end of a specified time.

You say there are other places and for most triathletes there are lots of places to improve in the swim. Ignoring kicking is not one of them.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Sep 28, 16 16:41

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 16:43

Post #22 of 43 (3822 views)

Quote:

"lots of reasons?"

places having a kick helps you:
surf
choppy water
the start of the race
going around buoys
anytime you sight
if you try to close a gap to the group in front
if you're trying to drop someone
if you need to increase your stroke rate
moving around in the pack

that's without really thinking about where the kick helps

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Sep 28, 16 16:44

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 19:13

Post #23 of 43 (3719 views)

I'm surprised nobody has accused you of being a troll ;) No better way to start a fight on ST than to ask about the importance of kick.

Here's my experience as an adult onset swimmer. Last year I did a 4 month block of 5 - 6 days per week swimming. When I first started I took a GoPro to the pool and recorded myself. I noticed I had a serious scissor kick (probably looked like a breast stroke kick at times). I then focused on kick sets for a couple of weeks. Still probably not nearly as much as true swimmers. I then recorded again and it was much improved. During that time my time dropped about 5 - 7 seconds / 100. I don't think I started kicking more or harder in my normal stroke but just cleaning up my kick got my legs out of the way and minimized drag.

I'm sure the true swimmers could give more technical reasons as to why my time improved but that's what my self diagnosis was.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 19:38

Post #24 of 43 (3688 views)

FindinFreestyle wrote:

cmscat50 wrote:

Would you care to elaborate on "lots of reasons?" I'd just enjoy the discussion. Thanks.

A properly timed same side kick counterbalances the disruptive nature of the strongest portion of the pull. It allows more of the pulling force to vector backwards, propelling your forward, as opposed to twisting you or moving you side to side.

Triathletes should develop their kick timing and not worry about their kick propulsion.

^^ This. I had something 'click' the other night while swimming and doing some hard 100's. I finally felt the kick timing (was using a 2 beat kick) line up with my pull while I was trying to pull hard. It felt amazing and fluid, and my 100 times were about 2-3 seconds quicker when I found that timing and tried to repeat it.

I was doing hard 100's (lcm) at around 1:29 (okay I know that's not exactly quick, but I guess it would put my times in a similar ball park with the OP), when I nailed this timing on a 2 beat kick my quickest came in at 1:25 with the average around 1:26-1:27.

Re: Importance of kick training in triathlon [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Sep 28, 16 19:45

Post #25 of 43 (3675 views)

Triathlon is more nuanced than that. For example, my bike position is a bit less aggressive than it could have been, but it sure let's me run better OFF THE BIKE. So while I am giving up 5-10 mins before T2, I am getting it back and then some once I get to running. Kicking is in the same wheelhouse IMO. Sure, if my goal is to swim a 50 second 100 I'd better get my kicking in gear. If I am planing to swim a fast 2.4mi without taxing my glutes, I'll concentrate on my stroke.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

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