Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths)
Quote | Reply
ST Gods - I'm struggling to understand how PSI impacts the 'hardness' of tires of varying widths. Given PSI is already normalized to "per square inches," I would think that regardless of tire width, as long as you pumped to the same PSI, you'd end up with the same level of hardness. But that's clearly not the case. So why is it when I pump my Zipp 808s with 23mm tires up to 85 PSI the level of hardness feels "normal" but if I was to try and put 85 PSI in my 650Bs with 47mm tires they'd be hard as a rock or more likely to explode. I just don't get it. Yea you're putting in more volume of air, but the increased volume results in the same pressure per square inch, so why the difference?

Dave
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Your perception of hardness.
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
First, gases are very compressible. In the working range of a tyre, there is a great deal of "squish" remaining, despite how they may feel to your touch.

Two tyres of different size have different internal volumes. Applying a force to deform either will produce a reduction in volume. A reduction in volume produces an increase in pressure, which fights back against further deformation. At some point, these two forces reach equilibrium.

In terms of relative change, the larger tyre will have to be deformed more to produce the same relative change in volume and consequently the same increase in pressure.

You'll find that the increased pressure, arrived at when the deforming force is applied, will be very close to equal in both tyre sizes.

I say very close, as in reality, the larger tyre constructed identically otherwise will probably be more pliable in the range of deformation we're discussing. That is because there will be less mechanical sheering and stretching required to deform the material as each tiny unit area is bending less severely.
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
davews09 wrote:
ST Gods - I'm struggling to understand how PSI impacts the 'hardness' of tires of varying widths. Given PSI is already normalized to "per square inches," I would think that regardless of tire width, as long as you pumped to the same PSI, you'd end up with the same level of hardness. But that's clearly not the case. So why is it when I pump my Zipp 808s with 23mm tires up to 85 PSI the level of hardness feels "normal" but if I was to try and put 85 PSI in my 650Bs with 47mm tires they'd be hard as a rock or more likely to explode. I just don't get it. Yea you're putting in more volume of air, but the increased volume results in the same pressure per square inch, so why the difference?

Dave

Your answer is in the property of "casing tension", aka "hoop stress".

Flo has a good summary here: http://flocycling.blogspot.com/...u-use-less-tire.html

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My subconscious is a wee be more at ease now that this curiosity has been resolved. Thanks Dr. A.
Last edited by: davews09: Apr 26, 17 8:23
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply


This chart shows that different width tires' spring rates or vertical stiffness are pretty much the same if they're pumped to the same pressure.

The tires are different widths and mounted on different width rims.

The 4 tire+rim combinations inflated to 8 bars are grouped together: the top four lines.
The 4 tire+rim combinations inflated to 7 bars are grouped together: the next four lines.
The 4 tire+rim combinations inflated to 6 bars are grouped together: the next four lines.

So this seems to support your impression that the same inflation pressure produces the same hardness in different width tires.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
From the Flo blog post referenced above I understood that tire "hardness" was equivalent 'casing tension' for all intents and purposes and as simplified as (P*D(m)) / 2. This seems to be contrary to the the chart you posted -- perhaps the deflection differences would be more substantial if you were using a larger range of tire widths instead of just a 2mm delta (23mm -> 25mm)?
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sure, if "hardness" is casing tension.

But if "hardness" is radial stiffness (what you feel when you push on the tire with e.g. a thumb or a test machine) then the data I posted gives a clue: differences due to inflation pressure are easy to spot.

I agree, extrapolating all the way out to 40+ millimeter tires would feel a lot better if we had similar data for wider tires. Anyone have data for that...?

Referring to the FLO page, the classic hoop stress calculations may explain why many "same model" tires often have different max inflation pressure recommendations for different sizes. The tire guys probably don't want more stress in their casing, so they reduce max pressure as size goes up.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
davews09 wrote:
ST Gods - I'm struggling to understand how PSI impacts the 'hardness' of tires of varying widths. Given PSI is already normalized to "per square inches," I would think that regardless of tire width, as long as you pumped to the same PSI, you'd end up with the same level of hardness. But that's clearly not the case. So why is it when I pump my Zipp 808s with 23mm tires up to 85 PSI the level of hardness feels "normal" but if I was to try and put 85 PSI in my 650Bs with 47mm tires they'd be hard as a rock or more likely to explode. I just don't get it. Yea you're putting in more volume of air, but the increased volume results in the same pressure per square inch, so why the difference?

Dave


Your answer is in the property of "casing tension", aka "hoop stress".

Flo has a good summary here: http://flocycling.blogspot.com/...u-use-less-tire.html

We've got some really cool new stuff coming on this too. "Nerd level expert" type stuff ;)


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good to hear - will keep an eye out
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for the clarification, appreciated.
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Could the effect be psychological (if the PSI are the same) but you know you are sitting on a big vs narrow tire? Also this video has some kind of calculator built in which seems potentially useful (although it doesnt seem to comment on comfort) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clk_LLBYFzA
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
damon_rinard wrote:


This chart shows that different width tires' spring rates or vertical stiffness are pretty much the same if they're pumped to the same pressure.

I beg to differ, picking 200kg (only as its a particuarly easy point to pull the data friom) de deflection varys frm 10-14mm.... so 40% for the flat surface, for the 8mm using 50 kg, wo ould say the figures are from 8-17? so around 110%. quite a variation IMO.
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [JRC] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Exactly: the big differences you are talking about are due to different inflation pressures, not tire size.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1) I don't know if I have the physics correct, but think of it this way...

The air pressure (psi) in your tire acts on the entire inner surface area all the way around the full diameter of the tire (and inner rim surface) to support the bike and rider, thus a skinny tire needs more pressure (psi) to support the bike & rider weight.

1) So lets estimate a 23c x 700c road bike tire has a contact patch with the asphalt of 1.5 square inches with a 150lb rider on board - so this means you have 150 lbs or air supporting the bike and rider (1.5 square inches multiplied by 100 lbs per square inch)

2) Applying similar logic to a 32c x 700c cyclocross tire which has a contact patch of lets say 2.0 square inches x 100 psi = 200 lbs of air supporting the bike and rider which is more than needed and produces a harsh ride

3) The solution for the 32c x 700c cross tire is to run lower pressure (75 psi) to produce the required level of support for the rider (2.0 square inches x 75 psi = 150lbs equivalent to the rider weight)

4) So given the above it takes much less pressure (psi) for a bigger tire to support the bike + rider weight than it does for a skinnier tire

5) This is why a mountain bike tire can be run as low as 20 psi and function properly (fat tire mtb's can successfully run under 10psi!!!!!)
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [GTOscott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Put 85 PSI in your car tires and report back
Quote Reply
Re: Impact of PSI on tire hardness (for different tire widths) [GTOscott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GTOscott wrote:
1) I don't know if I have the physics correct, but think of it this way...

The air pressure (psi) in your tire acts on the entire inner surface area all the way around the full diameter of the tire (and inner rim surface) to support the bike and rider, thus a skinny tire needs more pressure (psi) to support the bike & rider weight.

1) So lets estimate a 23c x 700c road bike tire has a contact patch with the asphalt of 1.5 square inches with a 150lb rider on board - so this means you have 150 lbs or air supporting the bike and rider (1.5 square inches multiplied by 100 lbs per square inch)

2) Applying similar logic to a 32c x 700c cyclocross tire which has a contact patch of lets say 2.0 square inches x 100 psi = 200 lbs of air supporting the bike and rider which is more than needed and produces a harsh ride

3) The solution for the 32c x 700c cross tire is to run lower pressure (75 psi) to produce the required level of support for the rider (2.0 square inches x 75 psi = 150lbs equivalent to the rider weight)

4) So given the above it takes much less pressure (psi) for a bigger tire to support the bike + rider weight than it does for a skinnier tire

5) This is why a mountain bike tire can be run as low as 20 psi and function properly (fat tire mtb's can successfully run under 10psi!!!!!)

Two tyres at the same pressure have the same size contact patch.
It just that a wider tyre has a wider, shorter shape than a skinny tyre.
This gives less affected sidewall so less rolling resistance.
You only get a larger contact patch if you lower the pressure.
Quote Reply