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If aero road bikes are so good.....

 
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DieTryin'

Jul 5, 12 14:18

Post #1 of 75 (5179 views)
If aero road bikes are so good..... Quote | Reply
.... why do the Cervelo team appear to be riding the R5 for the flat, fast sprint stages?


Fleck

Jul 5, 12 14:32

Post #2 of 75 (5104 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [DieTryin'] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
why do the Cervelo team appear to be riding the R5 for the flat, fast sprint stages?

Those Garmin riders like Giro winner Ryder Hesjedal must be idiots! :)

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog | EventsOnline | Bibnumbers.com


rickn

Jul 5, 12 14:32

Post #3 of 75 (5103 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [DieTryin'] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
There are some riders who use an s5, but at the end of the day most riders just like the r5 better. and when you race 100+ miles a day every day for a month that matters more than any aero benefit


Cobble

Jul 5, 12 14:36

Post #4 of 75 (5066 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [rickn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I find it interesting the riders are allowed to race the R5 instead of the S5. Beginning of the season riders have complained about the S5 but were forced to ride it except during the classic races that required wider tires.


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FrostyJ

Jul 5, 12 14:38

Post #5 of 75 (5039 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [Cobble] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Cobble wrote:
I find it interesting the riders are allowed to race the R5 instead of the S5. Beginning of the season riders have complained about the S5 but were forced to ride it except during the classic races that required wider tires.

What are the complaints?

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styrrell

Jul 5, 12 14:39

Post #6 of 75 (5028 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [rickn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
.that matters more than any aero benefit

I know you did mean this but its important to remember that every single rider that people criticize for not using an aero frame goes full ass aero in time trials. Its not like say DZ is some luddite that can't look at a bike computer and figure out that aero matters alot at times. He seems to have that figured out. If aero frame made as much difference in hilly stages as they do in TTs you would see that in the results. No one at almost any high level of cycling has won a TT on a standard bike in a decade, assuming the rules allow it.
Styrrell


danesbr

Jul 5, 12 14:43

Post #7 of 75 (4999 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [DieTryin'] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I kind of want to buy one of these areo road bikes but if the pro's won't ride them for free...


trail

Jul 5, 12 14:50

Post #8 of 75 (4942 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
>goes full ass aero in time trials. Its not like say DZ is some luddite that can't look at a bike computer and figure out that aero matters alot at times.

Yeah, I get the JackMott/TomA arguments for the aero road bikes (and I have one). But, maybe - just maybe - these guys whose livelihood depends upon performance at the very margins of what is possible, and who ride 30-40 hours per week may actually not be nearly as stupid as ST thinks they are.


DieTryin'

Jul 5, 12 14:59

Post #9 of 75 (4897 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [trail] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
And they don't even appear to have aero road bars...... just how stupid are these guys???? :o)


20twende

Jul 5, 12 15:01

Post #10 of 75 (4884 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [danesbr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I guess the question one should ask is: "do I spent most of my time (or my 'most critical' time) riding in a pack of 50-100 other riders?"

If the answer is no, then maybe you shouldn't choose a bike based on what the pro peloton is riding.


rickn

Jul 5, 12 15:01

Post #11 of 75 (4879 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Yeah in a tt there is no doubt that aero is king, but in a road race it becomes less important. Either you are in the right place and have the right hp, or you do not. I think at the end of the day a pro riders perception of his bike is just as important to his abilities as a 15 watt aero advantage


flyrunride

Jul 5, 12 15:06

Post #12 of 75 (4860 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [rickn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
But if Aero saves watts wouldn't it benefit the riders to take advantage of those watts saved in a 3 week tour? It could be seconds that separates the top contenders and those trying for stage wins especially when legs are tired. Then again maybe the difference between the S5 vs R5 is negligible when it comes to the pros.....


gregf83

Jul 5, 12 15:11

Post #13 of 75 (4833 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [flyrunride] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
You don't get to bank all the energy you could have saved during the 3 wks and use it during one stage. If you ride a stage a 60% on an R5 vs 59% of FTP on an S5 that doesn't mean you can put out any more power when it counts on a hilly stage. It's the same reason you'll see most of the peloton cruising along on their hoods or tops in a non-aero position. It costs them a few watts (actually more than the difference between an S5 & R5) but it's comfortable and doesn't affect the overall outcome.


cdw

Jul 5, 12 15:15

Post #14 of 75 (4815 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [trail] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

They may not be stupid, but often they are uninformed and mired in tradition. Since buying a new(er) bike a while back I am still occasionally surprised how fast I am able to go on fewer watts than before. This forum is very educated, often because we lack talent and are trying to get the most of what we have. Just because a guy can race at the pro level does not mean they know very much about bikes.
Chad




dwesley

Jul 5, 12 15:25

Post #15 of 75 (4772 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [gregf83] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:
You don't get to bank all the energy you could have saved during the 3 wks and use it during one stage. If you ride a stage a 60% on an R5 vs 59% of FTP on an S5 that doesn't mean you can put out any more power when it counts on a hilly stage. It's the same reason you'll see most of the peloton cruising along on their hoods or tops in a non-aero position. It costs them a few watts (actually more than the difference between an S5 & R5) but it's comfortable and doesn't affect the overall outcome.

kinda like this guy? i'd say he values aero.




Hoshie99

Jul 5, 12 15:29

Post #16 of 75 (4750 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [gregf83] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I agree that aero road frames seem to offer a lot of benefits and I'd prefer not to allienate the fine and motivated triathletes that post here or debate the real benefits aero factors provide: I believe they are real and time trials certainly prove it.

As a long time cyclist, I personally find many of the aero road bikes to ride somewhat "inertly." Meaning, they tend not to have that snap and responsiveness that does two things 1) enables you to quickly respond to changes in pace that happens in pack events and 2) give a certain type of road feel and handling that many road cyclists prefer.

So, I suspect a lot of why cyclists choose the R5 is that it gives them a ride quality they prefer which given mileage and pack conditions could be confidence inspiring which makes a big difference in a long ride / race.

In a personal example, in the early days of the S series, I much preferred the R3 to the S variants - the S bikes were very stiff and gave a much different road feel. Hands down, I would not have bought an S regardless of said benefits. In comparing notes to more road cycling centric riders, it was a common preference.

That being said, if I was currently in the market, I'd likely look to try the Scott Foil to see if it balanced the aero and road feel equation better.

If you are curious, instead of comparing data or theoretical factors on spec sheets, I'd propose a simple test: go test ride a Venge then a Tarmac or Roubaix back to back. They ride much differently and have slightly different benefits and advantages. Aero is one, I'd also suggest that handling, comfort or sprint responsiveness /prowess are all also valid and real factors in frame selection.


gregf83

Jul 5, 12 15:34

Post #17 of 75 (4722 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [dwesley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
dwesley wrote:
kinda like this guy? i'd say he values aero.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but Wiggo doesn't ride the whole race in the aero position shown on the left side of the pic above.


cannastar

Jul 5, 12 16:10

Post #18 of 75 (4576 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [DieTryin'] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
My key races are draft-legal but when I got my new bike I opted for the Tarmac SL4 over the Venge.

Whilst the Venge is indeed a faster bike, when it is in the wind, there are many more things to take into account.

1. Specialized claims that it saves 25watts at 40km/h, yet they admit that when riding in a pack, this number is reduced to 6 watts (and we all know how much ST bang on about ITU guys riding in packs).
2. The Tarmac is stiffer. Many ITU courses require frequent accelarations out of corners.
3. It's lighter
4. It's a considerably more comfortable bike to ride. 90+% of the time I ride my bike will be in training. For those long 4+hr rides I don't want something that is going to beat me up too much.
5. It looks better! (personal preference....I'm young)

I think the same can be said for all road vs aero road bikes.

The overwhelming reason why I chose the Tarmac was that I just enjoyed riding it more. I am sure many of the pro's just went by the bike they 'liked' riding, regardless of what science was telling them.

I'd love to test out the Madone 7 series. That looks like a very interesting mix of aero and traditional benefitis of an all-round road bike.
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Carl Spackler

Jul 5, 12 16:18

Post #19 of 75 (4549 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [cdw] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
The "mired in tradition" argument is so tired; if that were the case, why are they riding aero wheels, aero jerseys and now aero road helmets?

The aero frame pundits think you can turn a bike race into a math problem. They also conclude because they comfortably raced a 35-minute office park crit on an aero frame, it must be the right choice for the sport's most elite athletes tackling the most difficult events, because the math bears this out.

It's awesome that there's so much knowledge in the ST database. Too bad there's also so much arrogance instead of practical experience when applying some of it.

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gtingley

Jul 5, 12 16:55

Post #20 of 75 (4460 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [Carl Spackler] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
*Like* (Carl races road P1/2 and knows a thing or two about aerodynamics)

To add, not everyone's geographic area has fresh and smooth pavement ... take a Tarmac SL4 S-Works and a Venge S-Works. Ride them both for 100 miles over crappy SoCal roads.

The choice is pretty clear. To me anyway.

(I used to race an SLC-SL)




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Nick_Barkley

Jul 5, 12 17:05

Post #21 of 75 (4433 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [Carl Spackler] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Physics isn't practical?


styrrell

Jul 5, 12 17:23

Post #22 of 75 (4366 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [dwesley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
As I've said they all value aero, they just don't all value 6 watts over weight stifness handling comfort etc. Your pic of Wiggins bears thei out. That position is likely quite a bit more aero than an upright position. Sometimes he rides that position sometimes not. He isn't an idiot when he isn't in that position.
Styrrell


styrrell

Jul 5, 12 17:42

Post #23 of 75 (4298 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [Nick_Barkley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Its just not the be all end all. If it was someone would be able to look at the riders power profile, the wind, the course profile and the equipment, plug it all in and calculate the winner. Physics is a great tool to help determine equipment. For instance I used to race on TUFO tubulars all the time. They are light narrow ungodly durable, take high pressure well. They felt fast and for a while they were very hot sellers. Then testing showed that the the CRR wasn't as good as other choices so switched.

I'd love to have an aero roadbike, its just for the amount of riding I do where I would ride one vs my other bikes, I can't justify the cost. If rode crits or flat races as my A races I'd have one, but the vast majority of riding is different and oither bikes are more suitable..
Styrrell


bobby11

Jul 5, 12 17:58

Post #24 of 75 (4239 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [Carl Spackler] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I tried the "practical experience" argument many, many times over the years. I always got shouted down by a select group of ST "experts." I'm sure you know the ones.


tridork

Jul 5, 12 18:27

Post #25 of 75 (4148 views)
Re: If aero road bikes are so good..... [DieTryin'] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Aero is an important consideration, particularly on fast stages, but it's not the only consideration.

I'm not going to argue the aeroness, weight or stiffness of various options, but will say that at the top level, and the TdF is certainly the top level, FEEL is pretty important too. Not only the comfort of a road vs aero bike, but how a particular rider feels on a particular bike.

If say a 16 year old rider wins on a Raleigh 20, while everyone else is on TT bikes, then he (or she) will tend to beleive they are faster on a Raleigh 20. IF a rider feels fast on a particular bike, he probably will be.

As a rider can only ride one bike at a time (but thankfully we can OWN more than one at a time :-) ) there is really no way to prove that a given bike is faster in a given situation. Therefore, FEEL becomes the deciding factor.

Well, that's my take on things.

(back in the day when I was skiing, I'd choose skis by feel alone. Ski X might test faster tha ski Y, but feel skittish in comparison. I'd invariably go for the more stable ski as it felt better. Once in fact, I switched ski sponsors, from Kastle to Rossignol, based on tests and the opinions of other pros I respected. I skied the Rossi's for about 10 days, hated them, sold them, paid retail for some new Kastles and then switched back to Kastle the next year. All because of how the skis felt at speed. I just couldn't ski fast on the Rossignols. Very good ski's, just not for me. bikes are much the same)

TriDork

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