Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"As an aside, I think it is hilarious, and perhaps predictable given the way that everything has unfolded, that someone with a powermeter actually shows up to ride with Joaquin, and the battery is dead. Classic..."

On the flip side, I think it would be as hard to predict that they'd both show up on the same day, and both complete the ride, as it would be to predict what the power file is going to say.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
"Why don't we wait until we see the power file and see what he says"

And when will we be seeing this? I think I'd like to see results, reporting either way (positively or negatively) on PC's.

You'll see it soon after I see it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
perhaps he rode tufos @ 60 psi with tufo tape, and the powercranks weight a lot, and there might have been a significant headwind, and maybe he wore a parachute...
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"He was a minute off of his best time on the climb....he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) "

"This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts" (from Pez cycling interview)


do you know if the best time Joaquin was referring to was
a) the time posted in the pezcycling interview
b) a faster time he has recorded sometime between the pezcycling interview and the day you rode with him?

option b) might explain the disparity between finish time and wattage....

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [t2k] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
In Reply To
As an aside, I think it is hilarious, and perhaps predictable given the way that everything has unfolded, that someone with a powermeter actually shows up to ride with Joaquin, and the battery is dead. Classic...[/reply]
If you had one of the damn things, you wouldn't find it hilarious. :-) I actually pack spare batteries along when I travel with the bike. My CPU's buttons have been intermittent for a couple of months, and finally gave up entirely right before this trip. The waterproofing on them has always been lousy, which is inexplicable when you can buy a $20 Cateye computer that works fine in the rain.

In Reply To:
"He was a minute off of his best time on the climb....he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) "

"This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts" (from Pez cycling interview)


do you know if the best time Joaquin was referring to was
a) the time posted in the pezcycling interview
b) a faster time he has recorded sometime between the pezcycling interview and the day you rode with him?

option b) might explain the disparity between finish time and wattage....

No clue. He does have a race bike with power that's much lighter. The guy did the climb yesterday on no lunch and a banana that I gave him before we rode off.

Somebody earlier asked for my FTP: it's around 270; I say around because I haven't tested it in a while. Life gets in the way and I'm lousy at keeping an established test schedule (or any kind of structured program..I have too much going on and have to work out when and where I can). I'm just a 41 year old guy who's lost over 50 pounds due to tri training since 2004; that's reward enough to keep me moving.

Now I'm off to buy presents for my daughters before I fly home Monday!

Kendall Frederick
Orange Park, FL (by way of Madrid)

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Frank~

I've been too lazy to reread all of the background posts (although I have skimmed), so forgive me if this has been mentioned already- is there any reason not to get an independent exc phys lab (such as Duke's K-lab, or one of the others around the country) to test whether PCs are as effective as you believe they are? Clearly this wouldnt be a blind study, but even with a relatively small sample size (let's say N=40, split into the PCs group and the non-PCs group) the data would likely result in some conclusions, or at least some interesting data.

One final thing- I can't help but comment on your statement regarding physicians/scientists. As an engineering PhD who's done a fair amount of research, I'd like to say that most scientists think that docs in fact CAN be scientists. The fact that you draw conclusions from N=1 studies is why one could (and apparently many have?) argue that you're a poor scientist. But that doesn't mean that PCs are ineffective, just that your studies and/or data analysis/conclusions wouldn't stand up to peer review.

-Dave
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
OR there was a massive hurricane force headwind blowing down the climb.

Regardless of the PC debate, this guy putting out 358W average is extremely studly for a guy his size. I am the same size (63 kg, now ballooning up to 66) and I can barely hold 270W over an hour climb :-)
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
umm, so you say that the data from rides on completely different days with proberly different tyre pressures if not different tyres, different weather, different fatigue levels etc etc etc dosnt add up, i would be more surprised if it did!

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I'm searching for the perfect Slowtwitch thread title and this may be it. It's a little long, I know. :-)

I'm too lazy to give the background here and I figure most regular STers will get it. Anyway, I met up with Joaquin this afternoon in Soto Del Real, a small town a few miles away from Miraflores (the base of the climb up La Morcuera). Super nice guy; he was a little blind-sided by being thrust into the center of the ongoing Slowtwitch Frank Day vs. The World show. I tried to explain that it wasn't him (mostly).

I expected to get waxed up the climb, and Joaquin didn't disappoint. He rode an old aluminum Cannondale with the Powercranks and a set of Zipp wheels with a Powertap SL. I was on my POS road bike with my PT, unfortunately with no CPU because the damn thing's sitting here in my hotel room dead as a doornail. Just warming up on the way from Soto Del Real to Miraflores, I was pushing over threshold; I looked over at one point and Joaquin was showing 340 watts up a short climb. God knows what that meant for me as I'm carrying approximately 45 pounds more uphill.

We got to the base of the climb, I looked at my watch, and waved goodbye. Joaquin pedaled away from me on those goofy cranks and I never saw him after the first curve. Eventually, he came back down the last two kilometers and rode back up with me. He was a minute off of his best time on the climb, somewhere around 31 minutes, and said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range. I'm pretty sure he gave it all he had. I reached the top at 42 minutes.

We took a couple of pictures at the sign at the top, froze our asses off descending, and had a beer before parting ways. I hope I'll be able to ride with him more in the future.

Finishing up, I have no idea whether the Powercranks are responsible for his power output, and I find Frank's incessant posts regarding them as annoying as anyone. Like somebody said in one of the recent threads, I probably would've tried them a long time ago for a bit less money and with a lot less hucksterism.

Bottom line though: Joaquin's for real. Here's a guy past 40, 3 kids, traveling job, and he's putting out a LOT of power, especially at a body weight of 62k. I'd be happy if I could match that power at my weight of 83k. I figured after some of the hostile posts regarding him, this might even the scales.

Kendall Frederick
currently sitting in a Madrid hotel room..

Well, I'm affraid there's something wrong in that numbers...

I weight 64kg and have done that climb in 29m16 with 309w.

just in case someone says that conditions vary, the climb is mostly sheltered from the wind, but for the last 1.5km where you can sometimes find a headwind, that could acount for a 30'' diference.
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, I'm affraid there's something wrong in that numbers...

I, for one, must say that I am shocked - shocked - to find out that the numbers for an athlete that Frank Day has made such outrageous claims about, has inaccurate and totally unbelieveable data involved with it.

Both the athlete himself, and the product salesman, are above reproach in their honesty and integrity.

So, the only answer must be - the PT wasn't properly calibrated/torque wasn't zeroed.
There can be no other logical explanation.
I mean, he wouldn't lie or exaggerate, would he?

www.believeJoaquin.com


All sarcasm aside, I don't think anybody doubts that Joaquin is a decent rider.
Big deal, they are a dime a dozen.

He whooped a heavy tri-dork on a hillclimb. And this is a surprise why?


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:

So, the only answer must be - the PT wasn't properly calibrated/torque wasn't zeroed.
No, that would only INFLATE the power reading.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
umm, so you say that the data from rides on completely different days with proberly different tyre pressures if not different tyres, different weather, different fatigue levels etc etc etc dosnt add up, i would be more surprised if it did!

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic
Explain to me how fatigue has a measurable impact on power:speed? Power is power. That's why we train with it. And we are talking about a hillclimb, which is MUCH less variable than a road TT. Road TT's wind and traffic make a huge difference.

Using times to track fitness improvement is clearly inferior to wattage, but using times/wattages DOES indeed provide a "sanity check," which in this case does not add up.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
We got to the base of the climb, I looked at my watch, and waved goodbye. Joaquin pedaled away from me on those goofy cranks and I never saw him after the first curve. Eventually, he came back down the last two kilometers and rode back up with me. He was a minute off of his best time on the climb, somewhere around 31 minutes, and said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range. I'm pretty sure he gave it all he had. I reached the top at 42 minutes.

Kendall,
IIRC from the "Liar, liar,..." thread, there's 2 sides to the climb, one side is ~6.8% grade while the other is ~8%. Which side did you guys do and what was the length and average grade? Thanks.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Regardless of the PC debate, this guy putting out 358W average is extremely studly for a guy his size. I am the same size (63 kg, now ballooning up to 66) and I can barely hold 270W over an hour climb :-)
Yeah, that's sort of the point. A bit too studly...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ace1317] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Frank~

I've been too lazy to reread all of the background posts (although I have skimmed), so forgive me if this has been mentioned already- is there any reason not to get an independent exc phys lab (such as Duke's K-lab, or one of the others around the country) to test whether PCs are as effective as you believe they are? Clearly this wouldnt be a blind study, but even with a relatively small sample size (let's say N=40, split into the PCs group and the non-PCs group) the data would likely result in some conclusions, or at least some interesting data.

One final thing- I can't help but comment on your statement regarding physicians/scientists. As an engineering PhD who's done a fair amount of research, I'd like to say that most scientists think that docs in fact CAN be scientists. The fact that you draw conclusions from N=1 studies is why one could (and apparently many have?) argue that you're a poor scientist. But that doesn't mean that PCs are ineffective, just that your studies and/or data analysis/conclusions wouldn't stand up to peer review.

-Dave
Yes - because it would not be an independent test it would mean nothing to most of these folks who "discount" the studies that have already been done (and, besides, one "study" is hardly ever authorative and where is the K-lab going to get enough elite cyclists, etc. etc.), and it would cost a bundle. I have done the work and I know pretty much what it will show, hence my claims. Anyhow, the work is being done now independently, although we will be offering some financial support to the 6 month study when someone approached us, to pay for the testing, since such a study would probably never be one on its own and we think it has the potential to include the right athletes so we can know the true potential in the already very good.

The value of these for everyone should not be what a study shows, but what they do for them, so we offer a 90 day moneyback guarantee. What is more powerful to you, what some lab somewhere says they do for others or what your own experience says they do for you? If I were in your position that would be worth more to me than any study.

And, I didn't say physicians cannot be scientists. I actually think I am a pretty good one. I put that signature there because I was told that by someone in the Liar liar thread when he was trying to discount a point I was making. I think it is funny and says a lot about the quality of the arguments (attack the person, not the idea) made by that particular person who consides himself a scientist.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mr. Alvaro.

Just one question?

Why didn't you do the ride with Joaquin, then you could really have shown him up (or, at least, the calibration of his PT). I mean, it was put out here that he was intending to do it and when. When Kendall said he was going to be in the area and would like to see it I put them together and Joaquin adjusted the day so he could be there. Since you live in the area it seems to me that this would have been relatively easy for you to do and I am sure Joaquin would have tried to accomodate you also.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied.

"The reasons for my power being 358 Watts even though my time was almost 1 minute slower are very simple:

1) I rode up the hill with my training bike which is almost 3 kilos heavier than my Colnago carbon fibre racing bike
2) I am myself 3 kilod heavier than in th middle of my racing season
3) When I did my PB I did not record my wattage value since I was not using my powertap wheels. I did Navacerrada on May 6th, 2006 above 330 Watts. And I did my PB at La Morciera in September 2006, and I deducted my power was above 350 Watts
4) It was in February 2007 when I did the Terminillo climb (in Italy) at 377 Watts. And Then I did my VO2 max test before hurting my back
5) In august I did the 100 mile race with 4 1st cat hill climbs,
6) Now, as I told you I did yesterday La Morcuera at 358 Watts, with 6 kilos more than last year, more or less the same power, but one minute behind.

So my guess is that I will be soon close to 375 watts. And probably when tha racing season starts I will be able to peak somewhere close to 390 Watts"

He then came back with this addendum.

"one more piece of information. I read the ST forum, and there is something wrong in the information Kendall wrote there. My time up La Morcuera was yesterday 28' 38" (58" worst than my PB), not 31 minutes, as Kendall refers."

Hope this helps. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ace1317] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A study like that would cost much more than you think. Also, think about what it would take to train 40 athletes on powercranks. How many pairs of powercranks would you need to pull that off (40?). Let's say you had 10 sets of PCs. You would need 4 training sessions, 3 days per week to train all 40. But...if you had a control group (and you should), you would need to train them also. Do you have a room big enough or do you now ned 8 training sessions? How would you control training dose between groups? Computrainers? Now you need 10 computrainers. More if you want to train the PC and control group at the same time. Then you have to pay labor $$ for researchers. Frank doesn't make that much money on PCs.

Mike
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Mr. Alvaro.

Just one question?

Why didn't you do the ride with Joaquin, then you could really have shown him up (or, at least, the calibration of his PT). I mean, it was put out here that he was intending to do it and when. When Kendall said he was going to be in the area and would like to see it I put them together and Joaquin adjusted the day so he could be there. Since you live in the area it seems to me that this would have been relatively easy for you to do and I am sure Joaquin would have tried to accomodate you also.

for two reasons:

I don't spend enough time at slowtwitch, most threads are 3 pages behind when I open the site, so I had no idea joaquin was going to climb Morcuera.

My coach dictates my training, not this forum.

I'm not trying to get into another endless discussion, I as just pointing out a fact, that at 65kg, with a 9kg bike I've climbed that hill in 29m16, with 309w so the OP data was inconsistent.

If as you say joaquin climbed in sub 29minutes , that's a different thing, if he post his exact weight everyone can just plug the data into analyticcycling.com,

9,2km
6,9% inclination
altitude of the summit is close to 1800m (not 100% sure about that)

if anyone wants to check this data and is fluent in Spanish you can search for it at www.altimetrias.net, its called Morcuera, South side, starting point miraflores
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
hi Tom,

I'm pretty sure they are talking about the south side, which is 6,9% for 9,2 km. the other side isn't 8% either

IIRC the 8% figure comes from joaquin riding the south side during an organised race, with the start line about 1km further forward from where it's usually measured (the first part is almost flat)
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
umm, so you say that the data from rides on completely different days with proberly different tyre pressures if not different tyres, different weather, different fatigue levels etc etc etc dosnt add up, i would be more surprised if it did!

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic
Explain to me how fatigue has a measurable impact on power:speed? Power is power. That's why we train with it. And we are talking about a hillclimb, which is MUCH less variable than a road TT. Road TT's wind and traffic make a huge difference.

Using times to track fitness improvement is clearly inferior to wattage, but using times/wattages DOES indeed provide a "sanity check," which in this case does not add up.

fatigue would effect HR which is why that day for example it seemed low/high

Its a 30min hill climb, so theres more time for varables to have an effect than there would be in a flat 20min TT. If for example something like tyres is costing me say 2seconds every 5minutes then im gonna loose 8secs, its gonna cost him 12secs.

im not getting into the PC makes you faster or not argument just pointing out problems with compairing road rides.

What i will say is that if they teach someone to pedal better/smoother etc then that person will go faster with the same effort but by how much depends on how bad they where to start with, I cant see it making anything worse so got to be worth i try
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Alvaro,

Why don't you join us the next time I'm in town? I'll be back in December, though the weather conditions then may not allow a climb up La Morcuera. You can PM me your email address, or simply email me: fredericksk A_T_ (split up to avoid spammers) comcast dot net. I'll email you and we can all meet up. Then I can suffer and watch two of you ride away from me. :-)

Yes, we did the climb from the south side (through Miraflores, starting in Soto Del Real). You can find the climb on Google maps and show elevation, but the peak's not marked and I don't know how accurate it is.

The rest of this stuff cracks me up; "heavy tri-dork"? True, but you can still bite me, Murphy's Law. :-) I also like the Powertap calibration suggestions. Here, I've never met you before, but I'll just whip out my Powermeter Inspector Technical Slowtwitch (PITS) manual, hang this small, weight calibrated monkey from your crankset, and have him stomp up and down (he's trained to do that when I say "Venga!").

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Alvaro,

Why don't you join us the next time I'm in town? I'll be back in December, though the weather conditions then may not allow a climb up La Morcuera. You can PM me your email address, or simply email me: fredericksk A_T_ (split up to avoid spammers) comcast dot net. I'll email you and we can all meet up. Then I can suffer and watch two of you ride away from me. :-)

Yes, we did the climb from the south side (through Miraflores, starting in Soto Del Real). You can find the climb on Google maps and show elevation, but the peak's not marked and I don't know how accurate it is.

The rest of this stuff cracks me up; "heavy tri-dork"? True, but you can still bite me, Murphy's Law. :-) I also like the Powertap calibration suggestions. Here, I've never met you before, but I'll just whip out my Powermeter Inspector Technical Slowtwitch (PITS) manual, hang this small, weight calibrated monkey from your crankset, and have him stomp up and down (he's trained to do that when I say "Venga!").

Hmm...since you confirmed the side climbed and using the info that alvaro gave on the grade and the distance, and also using the info from Frank about his weight (i.e. 65kg body weight and I estimated ~11 kg for his bike and kit) I plugged it into here with an assumed air density of 1.1 and Cd of 0.6 (for a total CdA of 0.3, which is reasonable for a smaller guy like him on a road bike), and I get:

Tada!

321W

Hmmm...where have I seen that number before....

Based on that, yeah, I don't think it would have been to unreasonable to ask him if he ever checked the torque values on his PT hub. If he's recording 358W, or ~37W higher than physics would account for, it's likely his PT reads high.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Oct 27, 07 13:17
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied...
Those are all valid reasons for being slower. And did you ask him for the power file itself?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied...
Those are all valid reasons for being slower. And did you ask him for the power file itself?

He probably didn't download it...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply

Prev Next