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IM Vichy; AG standard obscene !
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I did IM Vichy yesterday; which was my 6th IM but my first in 5 yrs. Forgot how miserable the last 15km of the run was in heat (35c/95 F)
For a pale Brit it was too much and the wheels came off on the run; ended up with a 10.05 and really wanted 9.30
So very much a glass half full event....

But the real takeaway was the standard of the other athletes
I am in 40-45 AG; 230 people in that AG fighting for 4-5 slots
The first 4 guys in this AG went under 9 hrs…..winner was 8.40, second place was 8.45

Sixth was 9.10, imaging doing that and needing a roll-down

That’s on a fair course; on a very hot day and with a non wetsuit swim (I was at least 10 mins slower in the swim than I would have been with a wetsuit - I was a fairly scandalous 80 mins for the swim !)

Some of the AG’ers were running 3hr dead marathons; I just cannot imagine doing that in the heat

Very humbling, but also quite inspiring
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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I did vichy in 2015, the 1st year it was an IM branded course andi was also blown away by the speed of some AG. That put my kona dreAm to rest.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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bespoke wrote:
That’s on a fair course; on a very hot day and with a non wetsuit swim (I was at least 10 mins slower in the swim than I would have been with a wetsuit - I was a fairly scandalous 80 mins for the swim !)
When you look at the many traces on Strava, the bike course is missing 5k and the run is short by 1k. That's at least a 12 minutes advantage. Still fast times, but I wouldn't call the course "fair"
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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At first sight crazy indeed. Can imagine to be shocked. But as I see you had bad luck to be in the strongest AG (1st and 2nd were also 1st and 2nd overall, obviously no professionals competing).

At the top they were all 1 hour swimmers, and the bike course was obviously very fast. The 2nd and 4th "only" ran 3.15.

Congratulations anyway.
Last edited by: longtrousers: Aug 28, 17 5:38
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [nchristi] [ In reply to ]
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Run was short 1k on my garmin but bike was pretty spot on at 179.8km. Bike course was definitely not short (at least in 2015). Cumulated elevation gain is relatively small at 900m and road surface very average. Its not tremblant but it is a fair bike course. Swim course is also spot on distance wise.
Last edited by: frenchieTT: Aug 28, 17 2:21
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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If you look at the median overall finishing times in European Ironman events for the last few years, by my reckoning it's ranked 9th out of 13, so it's by no means an easy event; only the notoriously hilly courses of Nice, Lanzarote, Bolton and Wales are slower.

Sure, the bike course is some 4-5 km short, but annoyingly most of the European ones are short to some degree. It's also ranked the second slowest course for run times, perhaps suggesting that the heat is a major factor.

Those times are blazing fast though, it seems like it's a good course if you're able to deal with the non-wetsuit swim and searing heat, but that's a big "if"!
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a link to those short bike course?
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [frenchieTT] [ In reply to ]
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No, that is only based on my own (exhaustive!) research. Some of the European events are still only a few years old, so have tweaks every now and then, but Maastricht has completely changed the bike course every year in its three year history. I have the bike course distances recorded at:

IRONMAN Lanzarote - 179.5 km
IRONMAN France - 173.4 km (!)
IRONMAN Austria - 176.9 km
IRONMAN Frankfurt - 180.4 km
IRONMAN UK - 180.2 km
IRONMAN Switzerland - 178.1 km
IRONMAN Hamburg - 182.1 km
IRONMAN Maastricht - 177.0 km
IRONMAN Sweden - 180.7 km
IRONMAN Copenhagen - 179.7 km
IRONMAN Vichy - 175.9 km
IRONMAN Wales - 181.4 km
IRONMAN Barcelona - 180.2 km

All of these are the courses for the most recent event, with the exception of Frankfurt, which had diversion for this year only due to construction works. They're are based on the official published routes, Strava stalking and Google Maps plotting, so they should be reasonably accurate. In the case of IM Lanzarote and Copenhagen, they're probably within the margin of error, but others are clearly short.

The published routes for the new IM Italy event this year and IM Norway next year both look to be short too (178 and 175 km respectively); details for IM Tallinn are scarce at the moment.

Obviously, distance is only one factor though; IM UK and IM Barcelona are apparently exactly the same distance, but again, looking at median finishing times for the last few years, Barcelona is a full 90(!) minutes faster for the bike leg alone.
Last edited by: awenborn: Aug 28, 17 3:17
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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Great summary.
I wonder however if you can rely on the median to determine if a course is fast or slow. I'd like to mention reachability: I can imagine that the reachability (and expected weather) of UK or Wales are less attractive, leaving those IMs more "regional", that is with relatively less fast people.
Klagenfurt e.g. is the opposite, attracting many fast people from Italy, Germany and Slovenia, because it is a perfect vacation location and easy to reach.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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awenborn wrote:
No, that is only based on my own (exhaustive!) research. Some of the European events are still only a few years old, so have tweaks every now and then, but Maastricht has completely changed the bike course every year in its three year history. I have the bike course distances recorded at:

IRONMAN Lanzarote - 179.5 km
IRONMAN France - 173.4 km (!)
IRONMAN Austria - 176.9 km
IRONMAN Frankfurt - 180.4 km
IRONMAN UK - 180.2 km
IRONMAN Switzerland - 178.1 km
IRONMAN Hamburg - 182.1 km
IRONMAN Maastricht - 177.0 km
IRONMAN Sweden - 180.7 km
IRONMAN Copenhagen - 179.7 km
IRONMAN Vichy - 175.9 km
IRONMAN Wales - 181.4 km
IRONMAN Barcelona - 180.2 km

All of these are the courses for the most recent event, with the exception of Frankfurt, which had diversion for this year only due to construction works. They're are based on the official published routes, Strava stalking and Google Maps plotting, so they should be reasonably accurate. In the case of IM Lanzarote and Copenhagen, they're probably within the margin of error, but others are clearly short.

The published routes for the new IM Italy event this year and IM Norway next year both look to be short too (178 and 175 km respectively); details for IM Tallinn are scarce at the moment.

Obviously, distance is only one factor though; IM UK and IM Barcelona are apparently exactly the same distance, but again, looking at median finishing times for the last few years, Barcelona is a full 90(!) minutes faster for the bike leg alone.

Let's not beat up on the Euros too much. Here in Canada, I measured Whistler at 177K and Tremblant at 178K. I also had Tahoe at 177K. Luckily all of these races have 2000-2200m of vertical so like Nice no one is complaining about the "shortness".

Nice is understandable. it is a loop course and its not really easy to add more distance without adding in more road closures or extending the single out and back any further, I believe if you sent it downhill 3.5K you would add an additional Cat 2/3 TdF style 3.5K uphill to get back to the current turnaround point and you would have to put a turnaround on a single lane on an 65-80 kph descent, and on the 80 kph descent you would have two way traffic with riders coming back uphill. Pretty well an impossible ask.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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The holy grail to KQ is to pick an event with a lot of slots, a limited pool of athletes and also somewhere miles from Kona so chances of a roll-down are higher. By that reckoning IM Wales (60 slots this yr) is attractive - very few non UK guys will go there.
I agree the mainland Euro ones are packed with talent - you are getting the best guys from 5 countries driving down...

Its luck of the AG - 4 people in 40-44 were sub 9, yet the winning time in 45-49 was 9.15......

Regarding my comment on a 'fair course' I am not that bothered by the distance (and I got it at 177km). Its not like a pool being 48m vs 50m
They do the best they can on public roads
Everyone talks about 'short' courses, but there is no mention of elevation or road quality (or drafting)
If Vichy course was 179km in 2015 and 900m elevation, but 177km in 2017 with 1100m which is harder?

The fact that IM Nice is 7km short proves the point - its a total beast of a course; you dont need to add on 7km along Rue Anglais just to make it a 'proper course'

Barcelona may be the correct distance but its a notorious draft fest

I have done Roth in 9.24 and Copenhagen in 9.35. Both were much cooler, had a wetsuit legal swim and with much better road surfaces.
I think they are at least 10-15 mins quicker than Vichy

Which makes the fact that 4 guys in my AG did sub 9 even the more remarkable
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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bespoke wrote:
The holy grail to KQ is to pick an event with a lot of slots, a limited pool of athletes and also somewhere miles from Kona so chances of a roll-down are higher. By that reckoning IM Wales (60 slots this yr) is attractive - very few non UK guys will go there.
I agree the mainland Euro ones are packed with talent - you are getting the best guys from 5 countries driving down...

Its luck of the AG - 4 people in 40-44 were sub 9, yet the winning time in 45-49 was 9.15......

Regarding my comment on a 'fair course' I am not that bothered by the distance (and I got it at 177km). Its not like a pool being 48m vs 50m
They do the best they can on public roads
Everyone talks about 'short' courses, but there is no mention of elevation or road quality (or drafting)
If Vichy course was 179km in 2015 and 900m elevation, but 177km in 2017 with 1100m which is harder?

The fact that IM Nice is 7km short proves the point - its a total beast of a course; you dont need to add on 7km along Rue Anglais just to make it a 'proper course'

Barcelona may be the correct distance but its a notorious draft fest

I have done Roth in 9.24 and Copenhagen in 9.35. Both were much cooler, had a wetsuit legal swim and with much better road surfaces.
I think they are at least 10-15 mins quicker than Vichy

Which makes the fact that 4 guys in my AG did sub 9 even the more remarkable

I wish there was some kind of "conversion tolerance" along the line of for every 400m of elevation gain, WTC would allow a concession of 1K of horizontal distance. They had this entire debate about Muskoka (in its only year) not being an IM because of the road issue it would be 176K and due to all the crying and bitching they had to go and find another road to close to do an out and back. As it turns out, the race was so hard that no one signed up in the second year and WTC killed it. If the race was not 10-15 min "longer" on the ride than an already tough courses like Whistler or Tahoe or Nice (I split 5:27, 5:37 and 5:37 in those races respectively off 182, 165 and 185W) and had I don't Muskoka, I'd have been lucky to do 5;45 on the same watts. Also I split 5:21 (ride time) in Kona off the same watts with Kona wind and it is supposed to be a tough course but is 600-800m less vertical than the above courses. Vertical gain makes a huge diff especially if you have sections at 6-12% for an extended period. Lots of 2-5% in the aerobars with 2-5% downhill you don't lose as much on the uphill nor lose as much on the downhills wasting your potential energy pushing a ton of 70 kph wind like on steep downhills.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that's definitely something to consider, but then you could argue that slow people like a nice vacation spot as much as fast people! Although, given the speed that Austria sold out this year, I think you might be right that it attracts a certain kind of athlete.

The median time is obviously a fairly crude overview. It's the time for the 50th percentile, i.e. the dead MOP finisher, so if you're more towards the front end like the OP, then you might be better off comparing times for say the 10th or 20th percentile for your age group between races.

The website coachcox.co.uk is fantastic for this kind of analysis if you're interested. No affiliation, just found it interesting from an athlete's perspective.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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The holy grail to KQ is to pick an event with a lot of slots, a limited pool of athletes and also somewhere miles from Kona so chances of a roll-down are higher. By that reckoning IM Wales (60 slots this yr) is attractive - very few non UK guys will go there.
I agree the mainland Euro ones are packed with talent - you are getting the best guys from 5 countries driving down...

Its luck of the AG - 4 people in 40-44 were sub 9, yet the winning time in 45-49 was 9.15......




A couple of comments

- As noted there are a few IM run/bike courses that are not exactly as advertised - usually a little short. This in my view is somewhat moot - on race day everyone is doing the same course.

- North Americans are often shocked at the higher performance level of European triathletes in general - it's complicated and multi-faceted . . but it is what it is. In North America we have drifted more and more to participation and completion. Note there is NOTHING wrong with that - just know that, if you are gunning for a KQ, you are in a whole different situation.

- If you are wanting to bag a KQ in any AG 45 and under these days, you had better be thinking sub 9:30 on most typical IM race courses. I know to the average AG-er ( North Americans in particular) these seem like ridiculous but that is 1:00/5:15/3:15 - give or take 5 - 10 minutes on each leg depending on strengths/conditions - these days, those are times/splits that most elite AG level sub- 45 age men are capable of.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Thing is - I used to think sub 9.30 and you were in contention
Yesterday opened my eyes; you would need 9.11 and hope for a roll-down
And taking 20 mins off thee pointy end gets very hard !
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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The 20-25 ag at IM nice rolled to 21 or thereabouts in 2015

My experience is that whilst there are many cyclists on the continent, relatively it is still a smaller participation sport but the strength in depth is great

I suspect some of this is simply down to geography and numbers

In central london its 45-60 mins to get out of town and then you have perhaps the north downs

Its 20-40 mins to get out of Nice but depending on how you go you are already on your way to 300m and you can just keep going up

London / uk you get maybe 20-30 weeks a year

On the continent they appear to be less fair weather cyclists so whilst they may get more good weeks they also seem to be hardier

The final thing is - sky, lemond and armstong aside - whilst they have influenced generations. Cycling is just f$$king hard work and i think the continental history of cycling plays a part in the strength of some of the AG'ers that show up

I mean, lets be honest, if you grow up in belgium where the winters can be crap, everywhere you go is a bit like streatham hill but shorter and steeper and you are mad enough to participate in cx in freezing weather. Its not as if when it comes to be willing to suffer in a tri you will go soft whereas in the uk if you want to be freezing cold and wet on a saturday its football and on a sunday its rugby
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Germany, rightly, has the reputation for being the dominant Tri nation
But given its small size I think Belgium might be even more impressive
Quick Pros, quick AG'ers
As you say; if you have been racing bikes for 20 yrs then doing 270 watts on a IM leg and then running is probably not that hard !
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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But the real takeaway was the standard of the other athletes
I am in 40-45 AG; 230 people in that AG fighting for 4-5 slots
The first 4 guys in this AG went under 9 hrs…..winner was 8.40, second place was 8.45 //

Short courses, if it seems to fast to be true, it usually is. I would guess 10 to 15 minutes need to be added to the fastest guys, more as you go down the line..Hate to say it, but your farther away from that 9;30 than you thought. Solid race though, Europe has always had very deep fields in the AG ranks going for KQ slots.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Muskoka as it stood was easier and faster than Whistler. (N-2 anecdote)

Also believe the reason to cancel the event was instigated by the city requesting to end the contract.

Shame it was a great event.

Maurice,
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I am not doubting I am not as fit as I was - I only started training really training in Feb after a 3yr hiatus. You cannot rush these things
But I dispute your 'if it seems to good to be true'
If the bike was 4km short thats a max of 6-7 mins to be added
And I would argue if the swim was wetsuit legal you would have gained close to that
I just think some of these guys are quick; I google stalked the winner. He is an ex Pro, was once 4th Pro in IM France
Against that you have little hope
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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The bike split are suspiciously fast, usually good triathlete pace their IM very well, but a 4h30 bike+3h run split is a sign of poor pacing. There are to many of those nowadays.
Unfortunately mechanical doping, i.e. electric motors hidden into the bike, are more common than many people believe.
Taking also into account AG that take EPO in micro doses are not caught into anti doping controls. Only very unlucky people is caught. And IM would for sure not spend lot of money on tests... moreover different researches show amateurs doping between 10-30% of the athletes.

There are more and more cheaters on the field. Just compare the times of the AG to only five years ago... or even of the pro... The bike split went down 20-30min!!!
And I'm sorry but there is no way, NO WAY, someone could improve the 50watt that are need for such an improvement.

So, if you are clean, just stop to watch at others, because you really don't know how they have such performance.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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But I dispute your 'if it seems to good to be true'
If the bike was 4km short thats a max of 6-7 mins to be added //

Well it looks like it could have been 5k short and the run was 1k short. What was your pace in the last few K's., you can add that plus about 8+ minutes for the bike. And you don't get a handicap for a no wetsuit swim, the handicap is if you actually do one..I'm not trying to diminish your race, just put it into context if you want to compare times that are meaningful.
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Re: IM Vichy; AG standard obscene ! [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
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Vichy must attract a lot of pointy AG as it allows you to KQ over a year in advance alliwing you to spread the prep and cost of Kona over a year. It is also a good PR course compared to Nice so adds to the attraction.

Going to Vichy just made me realise that KQ was out of reach for me unless I made sacrifices on family time which is a no go. I used to think that sub 10h was a very solid performance. Sub 9h is the new sub 10h. You need to go 55min swim - sub 5h bike and a 3h marathon. no way I could take 1h off my time to be in contention. I am just too bad a runner for that.
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