Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
not sure I understand. violation of which rule?
Slowman wrote:
i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules.
Last edited by: Fenton: Aug 31, 15 7:49
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tony, i think you might have missed the very unsexy part of this discussion, where i wrote:

i think one possibility would be macro data analysis. could you write programs that analyze data for anomalies? for example, a run or bike split that is way out of whack with the pace of other splits? you have this flagged data, and the timers then look at that data more closely, to see if there's anything there.

this would be a tool for the front-line battle. if i were an NF, i might spend my money here, a grant for somebody to write code that analyzes raw timing data, making sure that this code was available to any timing company.


timing company people are very busy on race day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal. if we're going to give them an additional mandate, to parse the raw data to catch cheaters, fine. but it's an extra job. either we all need to pay an extra fifty cents or a buck an entry for the new person whose job it is to catch cheaters, or we all get together to build and provide all timers with new tools, or both. just, i don't think it has been generally accepted that it's the timers' exclusive job to catch cheaters. this whole thing has kind of snuck up on us.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zoom wrote:
I'd answer that for you, but all mentioned of that discussion got yanked earlier this morning.

You also missed the discussion about disappearing tan lines and disappearing/reappearing blue wristband.

deh20 wrote:
uucee wrote:
msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.


Curiously, in one image on the run, she clearly has a Polar(?) on her left wrist and a Garmin(?) on her right wrist. Other images show both watches on her left wrist. Then Garmin is definitely gone by the finishing chute, with only the Polar visible.

Can't step away from ST for even enough time to train!

My only thought is that one of those watches must have a record of what happened. Water under the bridge at this point. I'll try to move on. But it's just so hard to look away.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No Dan, I didn't miss that part and I thought it was an excellent post, I quoted part of it here in a reply: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5676574#5676574 Timing people are very busy on the day of the race, part of the reason I got out of it and have been reluctant to get back into timing despite having multiple opportunities to do so! When I did timing, one thing I always did when I could, was look for outliers. I was timing back in 2005, I was a one man crew. It seems as technology has improved, timing has gotten more difficult rather than less difficult!

But this is the discussion that needs to be happening!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I thought the clear statement that "she never trains with Garmin or Polar", then shows up in photos with one of each, wasnt farfetched or stretching any sort of truth at all.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zoom wrote:
A few of the pics did show the bulge. It could be a watch in there. There are also a few more pics of her running toward the finish where there is no 2nd watch on the wrist and no bulge in her top. It could be that she threw it in her special needs bag or in a trash bin at some point. The missing blue bracelet is pretty big red flag to me and is worth a discussion. One could argue that the blue bracelet was tucked under the watch in her right arm, but those bracelets tend to be snapped on pretty tightly and doesn't rise that far up the forearm.

Slowman wrote:
i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules then to your specific point i don't see the problem.

however, you guys are very good at this kind of thing. better than me. just, i'd like to see somebody develop a coherent, compelling theory and present it to me (or to the sportstats folks) off the forum board. if there really is something here then i'm sure one of you will generate it.

In one of the pictures where she is wearing both watches you can clearly see that she is wearing a timing chip. I guess it "fell off" before the first timing mat though. This is all getting so interesting. Someone needs to find where on the course that pic with the timing chip was taken.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jpay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
edit: to keep thread evidence-based.

Now Available: the High-Capacity Speedpack 915/915D Series. Advanced Aero Storage, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com......Reviews......Instagram......Facebook

"Why would you want to be the last man alive on a sinking ship?" -- Elon Musk on why Tesla Motors shares its patents with competitors.
Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Aug 31, 15 9:21
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jpay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jpay wrote:

In one of the pictures where she is wearing both watches you can clearly see that she is wearing a timing chip. I guess it "fell off" before the first timing mat though. This is all getting so interesting. Someone needs to find where on the course that pic with the timing chip was taken.

Yeah, looks like there is a timing chip in this picture.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe they are WWE fans...
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
thank you for the edit.

just to reiterate, for those who aren't yet understanding my posture here:

1. julie miller has been disqualified from two races, and in each case it's for not completing the prescribed course. in one case it was for not running the entire course. in the other for not completing the entire bike course.

2. there are other races she competed in wher splits were recorded that are beyond what many or most consider the fastest split possible by ms. miller, chief among them the ITU worlds run split from 2014 in weihai. i suspect this race is under current scrutiny, and would not be surprised if other races are as well, considering the circumstances in these first two DQs.

3. she is named in these threads, and you are allowed here to discuss this, because she has been deemed by the relevant authorities (race officials) to have committed the offenses. but i'm not interested in you all implicating others because your whimsy takes you there. so, please do not bring in ms. miller's priest, dog, high school best friend, or anyone else into this discussion unless you're prepared to make a definitive case you are prepared to stand behind and when i say "you" i don't mean you the anonymous user but you.

4. if you have a specific theory regarding another race, and evidence, i will consider allowing it here. but no magic bullets, magic lugies, second gunmen. develop a theory, but take care what you develop. ms. miller has been deemed to have broken the rules in 2 races. she is not a pinata, at least, not on slowtwitch.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 15 9:46
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [champy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
champy wrote:
jpay wrote:

In one of the pictures where she is wearing both watches you can clearly see that she is wearing a timing chip. I guess it "fell off" before the first timing mat though. This is all getting so interesting. Someone needs to find where on the course that pic with the timing chip was taken.


Yeah, looks like there is a timing chip in this picture.

It appears in some of the pictures her blue entry band is missing as well.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
tony, i think you might have missed the very unsexy part of this discussion, where i wrote:

i think one possibility would be macro data analysis. could you write programs that analyze data for anomalies? for example, a run or bike split that is way out of whack with the pace of other splits? you have this flagged data, and the timers then look at that data more closely, to see if there's anything there.

this would be a tool for the front-line battle. if i were an NF, i might spend my money here, a grant for somebody to write code that analyzes raw timing data, making sure that this code was available to any timing company.


timing company people are very busy on race day. their mandate is to get the results right, per the information at their disposal. if we're going to give them an additional mandate, to parse the raw data to catch cheaters, fine. but it's an extra job. either we all need to pay an extra fifty cents or a buck an entry for the new person whose job it is to catch cheaters, or we all get together to build and provide all timers with new tools, or both. just, i don't think it has been generally accepted that it's the timers' exclusive job to catch cheaters. this whole thing has kind of snuck up on us.

Dan, Sportstats already does this at the WTC races they time in North America and Asia. They then make recommendations to th RD's on DQ's. Marc is traveling back from Europe to North America toda and probably can't respond, but I thought earlier in this thread or another one I explained what they do in addtion to acquiring the raw data. They run some additional analytics to see if laps were skipped, if there is sudden changes in pace compared to an athletes own splits or the median degradations (something you might pick up if a person hopped in a car for example or had someone ride around the course on a mountain bike carrying their chip over timing wires. Anyway some of the stuff you speak of is being done. 5-10 results are thrown out in many WTC Ironmans that never get discussed on ST.

Perhaps you can consider an interview Marc on some of the technology they have developed and how they apply it on race day. Many readers will find it both interesting and also comforting that someone is looking out for clean athletes.

Dev
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
2. there are other races she competed in wher splits were recorded that are beyond what many or most consider the fastest split possible by ms. miller, chief among them the ITU worlds run split from 2014 in weihai. i suspect this race is under current scrutiny, and would not be surprised if other races are as well, considering the circumstances in these first two DQs.
Does anyone have a list of Julie's race results they would be willing to share?

This is an interesting read here with what we know now: http://www.powherhouse.com/...-victory-whats-next/


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's all summed up by The Great Vizinni:

(No friends, relatives, employees, employers, school friends, or innocent bystanders were harmed during the making of this post)
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?

Dan, please check in with Marc on the 5-10 people that they find did not earn their finish and get DQ'd. He seemed to say this was per WTC IM. I am sure some of this is honest confusion but there is also some intentional stuff going on....which frankly is not that surprising. out of 2500, if you have 5 DQ's that is only 0.2% of the field that is intentionally or non intentionally earning an Mdot medal and don't under estimate the leveraging of Mdot medals for bragging rights in society outside of our little tri world. If 0.2% of people try to get a false finish for bragging rights that number does not seem to be outrageous. It's like people who over inflate their resumes or make false claims. Heck even IM Cowboy was pretty loose on his definition of what he was calling an IM, so if he can do that, we should not be surprised if others would go through some means to cut courses to get medals/finisher certificates for bragging rights.

Dev
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?

I have just gone through this entire thread, and for a thread dedicated to facts/evidence about Julie Miller, there is precious little of either. It seems the vast majority of fact and evidence simply disappeared, along with a lot of cruft, with the deleted thread.

Regarding point 1. In that deleted thread there was a post from a male at the Vancouver Half who witnessed Julie Miller cut the run course. He also passed her twice and gave her a knowing smile/nod that he knew what she was up to. He also reported that he witnessed the cheating to the race officials, who then failed to DQ her due to lack of timing data to support cheating. This despite the bike data that showed her outsplitting all professionals on 2 of the 4 laps.

Lock the thread. Don't delete it. Then useful information like this post from an athlete who viewed it firsthand can be read, can be linked to, can be kept for posterity rather than eliminated from existence like Tiananmen Square for those behind The Great Firewall. You say deleting the thread is moderation. Others, myself included, say it is censorship. What, exactly, is the rule that dictates a locked thread vs a hidden thread? I'm sure finman, newbz, t3, Mike Rossi, and other cheaters who have been made to look bad want to know.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
i've spoken to a number of people who know her who, if you discount for a moment this silo of her behavior, have nothing but glowing comments about her. she's loved, admired, she's known to be giving, inspirational, and on and on. i can't speak about julie, i don't know her, and wouldn't try to characterize her if i did, but in my experience those who are loved and admired are often or usually loved and admired for good, valid and real reasons. everything that was thought good about them was good. most of us think of people in binary terms: good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. in my experience that's just not real life.

i'm a bit late to this. but that is simply garbage. no one here cares if she's a good mother, charitable person etc. we care about her cheating in a race that involves other athletes working hard. she has cheated folks out of kona slots, she deserves to be banned from triathlons for life.

imagine being that person that had one chance to KQ, trained really really hard, sacrificed everything only to have julie come in and steal her spot. that other athlete may never have a chance to KQ again. she robbed others of a year of their life. that's how i see it. so what if she donates to charity and is the best mom ever.

if you discount a silo of behavior from many bad people they are glowing human beings as well.

don't mean to jab at you dan. but i totally discredit what her friends and family have to say about her. hitlers mom probably thought he was an angel.

Catalyst Wheel Covers: Be faster and look great without sacrificing weight.

TOPO Footwear: use code TOPOTRAN20 for 20% off any order!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I have to agree. Lock the thread and don't delete. I understand worries about slander however this is pretty much a done deal. She is silent.


There is just so much evidence. And the question regarding a co-conspirator.. . Much has been deleted. . you can call it speculation but I don't believe that there is one poster here who wishes to accuse or point a finger at an innocent athlete.

People are outraged that cheating such as this goes on and would yes, like some repercussions to a cheat.

All the evidence that has been posted and deleted could be brought back and I think the powers that be should look into it.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
to you last 3 gents: Ty, kny, and aahchon. as well as others who feel as you do...

i note that a number of people who live in BC and who participated on this thread early on are not participating now. i don't know why, but it might be that they got the same love note i did from ms. miller's attorney, with the threat of litigation if i didn't excise and keep off the site much or most or the meaningful discussion on this topic. i'm now several thousand dollars into this, so that this thread can continue.

there has been at least 1 thread on this up on site continually since this story first broke. there will continue to be a thread. we are now in the neighborhood of 700 posts on this. this thread remains, notwithstanding the demand that it be gone entirely, or censored with a much heavier hand that i am using. this is an issue that threatens to erode confidence in our sport. this is an important topic. i'm willing to accept a certain degree of expense and peril to allow you all the freedom to discuss something that threatens to unravel the fabric of fair play.

finally, we do have an attachment to decency, fairness and civility on this forum, always have. before i pull any posts on these threads i try always to ask myself whether i would moderate this thread the same if there were no lawyers looking over all our shoulders right now. i hope the answer is in each case yes. just, i'm fain to allow a line of reasoning that, when followed to its terminus, may implicate an additional person, notwithstanding the fact that you are certain there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

i doubt you 3 are interested in splitting the legal bill 4 ways. i therefore ask that you filter your criticism of my moderation through the prism of the new check i write every day so that we can continue to discuss an important issue.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+1 (until you went off the deep end with the Hitler analogy ;) )

Been following this, but not up to date and didn't see anything in this thread... Any revised statement/admission/apology/request to talk with Oprah from Julie?
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lawyering up sure won't help her image. If fact, I suspect it will have the reverse effect to what she's trying to do. I agree that this stuff doesn't make her an overall "horrible person". That said, she was more than willing to accept the "fame" of her results, so it's entirely appropriate that she also experience the "shame" for how she got the results.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
to you last 3 gents: Ty, kny, and aahchon. as well as others who feel as you do...

i note that a number of people who live in BC and who participated on this thread early on are not participating now. i don't know why, but it might be that they got the same love note i did from ms. miller's attorney, with the threat of litigation if i didn't excise and keep off the site much or most or the meaningful discussion on this topic. i'm now several thousand dollars into this, so that this thread can continue.

there has been at least 1 thread on this up on site continually since this story first broke. there will continue to be a thread. we are now in the neighborhood of 700 posts on this. this thread remains, notwithstanding the demand that it be gone entirely, or censored with a much heavier hand that i am using. this is an issue that threatens to erode confidence in our sport. this is an important topic. i'm willing to accept a certain degree of expense and peril to allow you all the freedom to discuss something that threatens to unravel the fabric of fair play.

finally, we do have an attachment to decency, fairness and civility on this forum, always have. before i pull any posts on these threads i try always to ask myself whether i would moderate this thread the same if there were no lawyers looking over all our shoulders right now. i hope the answer is in each case yes. just, i'm fain to allow a line of reasoning that, when followed to its terminus, may implicate an additional person, notwithstanding the fact that you are certain there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

i doubt you 3 are interested in splitting the legal bill 4 ways. i therefore ask that you filter your criticism of my moderation through the prism of the new check i write every day so that we can continue to discuss an important issue.


This is a sweet internet bitch slap!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Matthew] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Matthew wrote:
Lawyering up sure won't help her image. If fact, I suspect it will have the reverse effect to what she's trying to do. I agree that this stuff doesn't make her an overall "horrible person". That said, she was more than willing to accept the "fame" of her results, so it's entirely appropriate that she also experience the "shame" for how she got the results.

agreed. sorry you are wasting money on this dan. if you don't want your imaged tarnished, don't do things that will tarnish it. it's that simple. with that said, i'll take what you said into consideration. no one here is questioning her character out of triathlon racing.

legalgooner wrote:
+1 (until you went off the deep end with the Hitler analogy ;) )

Been following this, but not up to date and didn't see anything in this thread... Any revised statement/admission/apology/request to talk with Oprah from Julie?

my point was not that hitler was good person. my point was that it doesn't matter what friends/loved ones thing/say because they are biased. there is a reason why family members/friends are not allowed on juries of people they know.

john

Catalyst Wheel Covers: Be faster and look great without sacrificing weight.

TOPO Footwear: use code TOPOTRAN20 for 20% off any order!
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Dan for allowing this thread to continue! I should have assumed that Ms Miller would lawyer up just as Rossi did… My blood gets rather heated when I learn about cheating like this, even hotter when I find out she has lawyered up in an attempt to squash the efforts to expose her cheating! Then I look at a chached version of Ms Miller's attempts to fundraise to support her cheating, er, triathlons: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
Quote Reply

Prev Next