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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
you're broadcasting your voice right now. i'm hosting the speech, you're the speech. it's highly unlikely what you're writing now is not going to come to the attention of USAT and triathlon canada at a minimum, as well as the leading edge timing companies like sportstats.

if you want to amplify this broadcast then i suggest some of you who are social media savvy might push it out via your own social media. we may as well push on our own facebook page and twitter feed.


Until some a-hat forum members get personal, destructive or vindictive enough to get the entire thread "hidden"!
Last edited by: Burnt Toast: Aug 30, 15 9:39
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Burnt Toast] [ In reply to ]
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These Lap courses, and especially sprint tris where there are pool swims with a ton of wave starts creates chaos for timers. I have been involved in several where times can get messed up pretty quick. I was recently was involved in a sprint tri where my swim time was way out of whack to the good. When I saw my results, and knew there was something wrong I went to the timers and let them know(sports stats) and they looked thoroughly, and found the issue, and changed the results. I knew because not only do I know my times, I wear a gps Garmin device and know my overall time. In my age group it meant that I was going from 2nd to 5th. I knew my swim time was off, and I am not going to accept something I know is wrong. As people have said, at the pointy end of your age group, you know your splits, almost to the exact minute. There is no way that you don't know where you stand on your splits.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting analogy Dan. BUT JFK was not elected to the highest office in the land because of his fidelity to his wife. His job description was not "worlds best dad".

Julie Miller had one job and cuttjng courses repeatly disqualified her from being able to do that job. Shd should stick with being an inspirational volunteer and great mom.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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but then you need to figure out what constitutes behavior warranting a suspension that survives just that single race. you codify it, you put it in the rules or in the code of ethics, and in the waiver you make sure everyone agrees to abide by the rules (as is now the case). what we have now are races and NF making ad hoc decisions, and they're afraid of the consequences of their decisions, so they're timid. but if we had guidelines, and behaviors that triggered consequences, as we have with drafting, doping, etc., then i think RDs and NFs would be more confident in their decisions.
this is where the NF has a role to play. if you are found to have not completed the prescribed course X times in Y months or years, you get a suspension for 1yr, or 2yr, whatever. or if you have 3 incidences of losing timing chip + not completing the course in 24 months. whatever. that seems a discussion worth having, because more and more of these cases are popping up. either this kind of behavior is really ramping up, or it's always been there but now it's easier to find these incidences. so, rather than hand wringing about what to do in each case, if we had a set of guidelines prescribing what we do, then i think NFs and RDs would know what actions to take, and they'd know that the athletes agree to this process as a condition of racing.
Totally agree with this Dan, I personally will be very disappointed/upset if the NFs don't address some of the blatant course cutting that has been covered in the news lately. I don't think we need to wait for the programming that does the macro analysis, the NF's need to add something to the effect: "competitors that are found to have not completed the entire course through either direct evidence or based on unbelievable splits are subject to DQ. Athletes that are found to have intentionally cut a course to gain a competitive advantage more than once shall be suspended for a minimum of two years. Subsequent intentional course cutting shall result in a lifetime ban from all USAT sanctioned events."

I was pulled into the whole "Mike Rossi" marathon and am disappointed with how that was handled. The fact that Julie Miller has been DQ'd here is great, though I read earlier (or in another thread) somebody raise a good question, why wasn't she DQ'd immediately for not having a timing chip as required? Despite this, kudos that the work was done to show she did cut the course!

For any timing companies or event management/production groups, here is an idea for you, I had thoughts of monetizing this, the idea came to me during the Rossi deal and I was going to call them "Rossi Boxes" and was thinking I could create 20 to 50 Rossi Boxes and have them available to rent to races/events for one or two hundred dollars a weekend. A Rossi Box would be an old Iphone 4 or 5 that is still functional. Combine it with a pelican/waterproof case, a tripod, a security cable and a small solar panel to keep the Iphone active. Combine it with something like this http://www.cnet.com/...ity-camera-for-free/ or I was considering using Dropcam tethered to an Iphone. Either way, the Rossi Boxes could be placed at key spots in the race recording footage that could later be reviewed if there were possible course cutting issues. As technology improves, boxes like this combined with OCR and the requirement to have bib numbers visisble will eventually cause timing chips to be less relevant.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
As technology improves, boxes like this combined with OCR and the requirement to have bib numbers visisble will eventually cause timing chips to be less relevant.



Death Rides A Pale Cow
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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in addition... People who claim that requiring additional accountability on the part of the races to make sure cheating isn't happening assume that means additional timing mats and that this would dramatically increase costs for the race. This isn't surprising that when dealing with triathletes, they always go to the highest and most expensive level of technology. All it would really take is $100 to hire a volunteer/worker to stand/sit at each point needed with a video camera. Or, purchase game cameras and hide them throughout the course at undisclosed locations. Not everything requires a timing mat, you can pick up good quality camera's these days for dirt cheap. Pick up some Flip cameras off Ebay!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone catch this blogpost from the "now 4th place" person from the same age category as Julie Miller?

https://aquicktenmiles.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/an-unexpected-addendum/

Pretty weird that she mentions, "Coincidentally the first placed athlete in my AG was standing in front of our vantage point for the awards and both she and her coach vigorously and noisily defended her performance and running capabilities (her coach had put in a protest against her DQ on no chip and her finish time was formally corrected via video footage). It sounded plausible. I shrugged and asked no questions."

Is This true? Cam anyone else verify that her coach was there to protest that Julie Miller was capable of running such fast times? Which coach was this is the next question!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Uncle Phil wrote:
Ossenbrink wrote:
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the feedback, criticism and positive words regarding my coaching and coaching ethics.
As you would expect, I have cut my ties from Julie Miller. A lot of you have put in a lot of amazing work researching her performances and have found questionable results or even evidence that she did not follow the rules and cut the course. I don't know what it takes for a person to do something like this - there are dopers and there are drafters and course cutters - all of these are serious rule infractions

I agree with some you that I should have researched or analyzed her results after some races more in detail but I did not and this was my mistake! I coached Julie based on her feedback. She did not use Garmin devices or a Powermeter or even a bike computer or downloadable watch. I relied purely on her feedback through TrainingPeaks which was only provided to 10% with some HR numbers. Never was there a any doubt brought up to me from others that she might hav cut courses short or cheated in other ways leading up to this.
I tolerate ZERO cheating with my athletes and as I said before it is possible that I could have caught this earlier with paying better attention - my fault but as a coach I'm not out there to question every race result athletes produce. Nobody expects this from people. I'm NOT responsible for any athletes action and these actions she produced are out of my control.

I have been talking to Dan Empfield (slowman) and Jimmy Riccitello (Head IM official) trying to assist as much as I can.

I’m open to discuss this further. Do it directly, you can contact me via the message board and I will exchange email or a phone after to discuss.

Thanks,
Bjoern
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twitchiest] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's surprising if that occurred. She was lying to her coach who had no reason to not believer her and he was supporting his athlete. Circumstances changed later and the coach did what was appropriate.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, GARMIN, Ceepo, Smith Optics, Boom Nutrition, SpeedFil, FuelBelt, SCYS, L3 Endurance Coaching
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twitchiest] [ In reply to ]
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Hah...guess that reveals the source of the pic I posted on the deleted thread!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
in addition... People who claim that requiring additional accountability on the part of the races to make sure cheating isn't happening assume that means additional timing mats and that this would dramatically increase costs for the race. This isn't surprising that when dealing with triathletes, they always go to the highest and most expensive level of technology. All it would really take is $100 to hire a volunteer/worker to stand/sit at each point needed with a video camera. Or, purchase game cameras and hide them throughout the course at undisclosed locations. Not everything requires a timing mat, you can pick up good quality camera's these days for dirt cheap. Pick up some Flip cameras off Ebay!

To your point, cameras are cheap, and you can put them at aid stations (already manned) or at the 180s (also already manned) so no additional personnel are needed. Heck, GoPro is an IM sponsor.
IMO in the event of a lost chip, the onus should be on the athlete to prove the validity of the questionable performance vs. the RD having to prove they cut. Don't wanna lose out on that KQ? Make sure your Garmin is working and your number is visible to the cameras (just in case your chip gets lost).


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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twitchiest] [ In reply to ]
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twitchiest wrote:
Did anyone catch this blogpost from the "now 4th place" person from the same age category as Julie Miller?

https://aquicktenmiles.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/an-unexpected-addendum/

Pretty weird that she mentions, "Coincidentally the first placed athlete in my AG was standing in front of our vantage point for the awards and both she and her coach vigorously and noisily defended her performance and running capabilities (her coach had put in a protest against her DQ on no chip and her finish time was formally corrected via video footage). It sounded plausible. I shrugged and asked no questions."

Is This true? Cam anyone else verify that her coach was there to protest that Julie Miller was capable of running such fast times? Which coach was this is the next question!
My favorite part of 4th's blog was this: "The Twitchhunters are fantastically probing gossips, and everything from her coach’s knowledge or otherwise of her actions to the size of her thighs are called into question. I’ve never considered cheating, but if I had, the stone throwing of the Slowtwitch forum and the public contemplation of my cellulite (alone) would make me think twice."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [msk] [ In reply to ]
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msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
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to no one in particular:

you guys were busy developing some interesting new theories. they're a little too out-there for us to develop them further here. if you think you've got a new truth worth exploring, i encourage you to share it with the sportstats folks, who regularly monitor this forum.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 15 6:31
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to know one in particular:

you guys were busy developing some interesting new theories. they're a little too out-there for us to develop them further here. if you think you've got a new truth worth exploring, i encourage you to share it with the sportstats folks, who regularly monitor this forum.
Hmm. . I could be wrong however I don't believe the "know one" was a grammatical error.

As in you know who you are ;)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for the catch. before my morning coffee kicks in i tend only to think audibly, and am caught by homonyms.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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We were just showing the person who asked if triathletes have forgotten how to have fun that we still do.

This onion has way too many layers and, you have to admit, some of them are pretty dang odd.

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [uucee] [ In reply to ]
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uucee wrote:
msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.

Curiously, in one image on the run, she clearly has a Polar(?) on her left wrist and a Garmin(?) on her right wrist. Other images show both watches on her left wrist. Then Garmin is definitely gone by the finishing chute, with only the Polar visible.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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i'm not saying there's no validity to the latest line of inquiry. but some folks were getting pretty fast and loose with the concepts, mixing the 2013 and 2015 races, and bringing in a second person who, as far as i know, is not culpable. when you're an anonymous poster to a reader forum you can throw out whatever you want, leaving it to the moderator to consider the consequences (to potentially innocent parties, for example).

so, our ex-user "Mr. X" left as many do, performing a triple salkow on his way out the door: "I am done contributing to this forum - your moderation of free (and constructive - on this particular matter) is more than I care to be associated with. - please feel free to delete my existence."

he and I agree on point point: he is done contributing to this forum.

there are a couple of people here who, on their own, have developed well-reasoned theories for if and how misdeeds were performed, and then presented them. the "evernote" is a case in point. if someone would like to develop this latest theory offline, and present it to me, i'm interested in seeing it.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta say, this thread is not easy to keep track of. Up and down like the Roman Empire... ;-)


Cheers,
malte
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules then to your specific point i don't see the problem.

however, you guys are very good at this kind of thing. better than me. just, i'd like to see somebody develop a coherent, compelling theory and present it to me (or to the sportstats folks) off the forum board. if there really is something here then i'm sure one of you will generate it.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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I'd answer that for you, but all mentioned of that discussion got yanked earlier this morning.

You also missed the discussion about disappearing tan lines and disappearing/reappearing blue wristband.

deh20 wrote:
uucee wrote:
msk wrote:
It would be interesting to see if she has full race splits for IMC 2013.
CoachCox has the full results (scroll down to the Google docs link.) No run splits there, either, but FinisherPix does show her wearing a Garmin on the run.


Curiously, in one image on the run, she clearly has a Polar(?) on her left wrist and a Garmin(?) on her right wrist. Other images show both watches on her left wrist. Then Garmin is definitely gone by the finishing chute, with only the Polar visible.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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When someone is discovered to have been doping, all their results during the time that they were doping are stripped/nullified. My feeling are that the same should be true with deliberate course cutting. I'm glad that sportstats appears to be going back through previous results and DQ'ing Julie from races with crazy splits on the part of Julie. Having timed races before, one look at this here: http://rhq.sportstats.ca:8085/...i/VancTri2014LD.html and Julie should have been DQ'd the day of the race, when there is a 142, followed by a 1 a 1, and then a 42 it is quite obvious that rules were broken, either major drafting or course cutting… Better late then never though!

Moving forward, hopefully NF's will make changes so that deliberate course cutters are dealt with in a similar way that dopers are.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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"I'd answer that for you, but all mentioned of that discussion got yanked earlier this morning. You also missed the discussion about disappearing tan lines and disappearing/reappearing blue wristband."

i saw all the posts. are you volunteering to do the research on this offline? if so, i'll send you by email the information you're missing from the thread.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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A few of the pics did show the bulge. It could be a watch in there. There are also a few more pics of her running toward the finish where there is no 2nd watch on the wrist and no bulge in her top. It could be that she threw it in her special needs bag or in a trash bin at some point. The missing blue bracelet is pretty big red flag to me and is worth a discussion. One could argue that the blue bracelet was tucked under the watch in her right arm, but those bracelets tend to be snapped on pretty tightly and doesn't rise that far up the forearm.

Slowman wrote:
i also believe there's a bulge in her singlet where a watch might have been thrust? unless moving a watch from one wrist to the next, then shoving it down one's top, is a violation of the rules then to your specific point i don't see the problem.

however, you guys are very good at this kind of thing. better than me. just, i'd like to see somebody develop a coherent, compelling theory and present it to me (or to the sportstats folks) off the forum board. if there really is something here then i'm sure one of you will generate it.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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