Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ty, i just removed your latest post. we get it. there is nothing you wrote that we don't all already know. this is like a few good men where demi moore says, "i object." overruled. "i strenuously object."

don't think our condemnation is not understood and appreciated. your strenuous condemnation is unnecessary.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
ty, i just removed your latest post. we get it. there is nothing you wrote that we don't all already know. this is like a few good men where demi moore says, "i object." overruled. "i strenuously object."

don't think our condemnation is not understood and appreciated. your strenuous condemnation is unnecessary.

But Dan - he strenuously objected.


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
Typically these types of people rarely demonstrate any form of contriteness and will not issue an apology even when they are faced with irrefutable evidence that they cheated. Australia's answer to Jane Miller cheated in a very similar pattern to JM. Cutting bike/run courses and starting in different waves so was ending up with extraordinary splits. I think one IM he would have had to cover 7kms in 22 mins, so averaging just over 3 min/km (not bad for an overweight 44 year old).. when provided with this information (plus a ton of other data) during his tribunal with Triathlon Western Australia he continued to deny he had cheated. Very bizarre.. I think he would have garnered a bit more sympathy and people would have been a bit more forgiving if he'd stuck his hand up and admitted he cheated - sometimes people go through tough times in their lives and do stupid things - but to continue to lie...
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
ty, i just removed your latest post. we get it. there is nothing you wrote that we don't all already know. this is like a few good men where demi moore says, "i object." overruled. "i strenuously object."

don't think our condemnation is not understood and appreciated. your strenuous condemnation is unnecessary.

Hey got it. No hard feelings. I will in the future try to control my passionate objection. And redundancy.

Oh and I always did love that movie. And Demi with those thick black glasses and goofball demeanor.
Last edited by: Ty: Aug 28, 15 15:59
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zedzded wrote:

Typically these types of people rarely demonstrate any form of contriteness and will not issue an apology even when they are faced with irrefutable evidence that they cheated. Australia's answer to Jane Miller cheated in a very similar pattern to JM. Cutting bike/run courses and starting in different waves so was ending up with extraordinary splits. I think one IM he would have had to cover 7kms in 22 mins, so averaging just over 3 min/km (not bad for an overweight 44 year old).. when provided with this information (plus a ton of other data) during his tribunal with Triathlon Western Australia he continued to deny he had cheated. Very bizarre.. I think he would have garnered a bit more sympathy and people would have been a bit more forgiving if he'd stuck his hand up and admitted he cheated - sometimes people go through tough times in their lives and do stupid things - but to continue to lie...

This is why I think that whether or not she acknowledges her behavior is irrelevant to the triathlon community as a whole. What's important is that she is punished for her actions and that those whom she harmed are made, at least to the extent available, whole. That said, she probably should apologize to the ladies she harmed. That would be the decent thing to do.




My triathlon training blog
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
no harm, no foul.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The best thing about my close friends is when one of us "phuck up" regardless of what it may have been, we will hug the moron, and then slap them in the head and say "what the hell were you thinking"...pressure doesn't build character, it reveals it...

Pots4

(I have phucked up plenty in 49 yrs and have a bruise on the side of my head to prove it)
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
"it is Dan's sandbox"

no. it is your sandbox. i moderate it. if this was a government-owned enterprise you all would still demand moderators. you'd elect them. or you'd elect a CEO to appoint them. either way, you'd want them. that moderator is going to make decisions that are variously popular and unpopular, depending on the person.

the guidelines here are also generally not my rules, but yours. in the classifieds, in the lavender room, i ask the folks who spend their time there what they want. they tell me and that's what they get.
but i'm the one who has to filter the crap out when some pussy* sh!ts in it

FTFY
* not a reference the person Dan was responding to.
Last edited by: sharkbait_au: Aug 28, 15 18:25
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I want to go back to Tonythetriguy's question - about further repercussions from the WTC or other authority. I'm not talking about the person here exactly, but the situation that presents itself: say for example we have a repeat cheater. say the athlete has multiple DQ's at WTC events for cutting courses. When and how would they assign a penalty/ban for multiple infractions (or would they)??
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
to you, and to dev, there is a school of thought that forgiveness can be extended, but it's not granted unless it's accepted. everyone to whom i have spoken feels this way about this situation. even her supporters to whom i've spoken are supporters rather than abettors. they support her, and maintain their confidence in her, but don't absolve the acts.

i have not spoken to anyone who thinks she ought to be given a pass, absent her accepting the forgiveness and that means acknowledging the need for it. nobody wants to be forgiven for an act that he or she does not acknowledge requires forgiveness. that's the stand-off. last i knew, that's where we're at. i just don't know that 100 more posts reiterating this serves the purpose.

i have 3 dogs, and there's a 12-foot long, 4" diameter piece of PVC pipe on the property where we walk in the morning. when there's a varmint in that pipe, a dog gets on each end of the pipe and barks repeatedly, reasoning i guess that enough barking will convince the varmint to come out and get eaten. that tactic never works. it's cathartic for the dogs, i guess, but it never coaxes the varmint out. in fact, it probably convinces the varmint to stay put.

That "story" is awesome. It's like a writing work of art - and, I'm serious.


I could break the course record - theoretically, Bishop Pickering - from the movie "Caddyshack"
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Priceless...Ya lose your sense of humour...all is lost! Nice one.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [supersilly] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My understanding is that the guy from Australia was banned by Triathlon Western Australia from all sanctioned triathlon events in Australia for 2 years. He was also banned by WTC from all WTC events worldwide for 2 years. This would indicate that WTC can and have banned people from their events and could be applied in this case.

From what I have read on another Tri forum the Australian guy has ignored the ban and has raced at WTC event last week. It will be interesting to see what WTC does, if this is the case.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ironnerd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
yeah, my feeling is that if it can be shown (again, how?) that the course-cutting has been intentional and repeated, you have to go for a ban. treat it essentially as doping, since it is a concerted effort to game the system undetected, improve your ranking, and deprive your competitors. that puts it in a different category, for me, from 'sin bin' rule-breaking like littering, positioning fouls, and so on.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
so, dan - if i could mix several metaphors here (which i know you're not allergic to): is this the tip of the iceberg, or a storm in a teacup?

dev's report of his conversation with sportstats is interesting - how common a problem do with think that this form of cheating (considering course-cutting, chip-losing, and wave-start manipulating all together) really is?

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan, your keen insight into human psychy is pretty amazing. I think one reason these threads catch fire is that we all have a little Julie (or Lance, or Starky, etc) in us. I sure do . . . I call him "bad david!" Further, of the finger pointers who all picks and chooses their rules (like me). Anyone ever get a speeding ticket? Shame, shocked, aghast, oh my! By extension, could it be we are dopers? Worse yet, someone like me who got a speeding ticket and then got it fixed because, well, I know how it works and I can. How bad is that!! We all have sins and we can hate the sins, yet not the sinner. We can all hate the course cutter, doper, loud mouth, speeder, etc and still accept the person.

Thanks for accepting and pointing out our humanity,

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Quote Reply
Post deleted by livestrongscott [ In reply to ]
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jimmy riccitello is in austria right now for 70.3 worlds. when he gets back he might give you an explanation. if he doesn't post here for several days realize he's got his hands full with the race he's working right now on the other side of the globe.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe they just wanted to make sure she paid the $75 for losing a chip first before DQ'ing her... ;) Congrats to your wife on her well-deserved, if too delayed, win.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [david] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
david wrote:
Dan, your keen insight into human psychy is pretty amazing. I think one reason these threads catch fire is that we all have a little Julie (or Lance, or Starky, etc) in us. I sure do . . . I call him "bad david!" Further, of the finger pointers who all picks and chooses their rules (like me). Anyone ever get a speeding ticket? Shame, shocked, aghast, oh my! By extension, could it be we are dopers? Worse yet, someone like me who got a speeding ticket and then got it fixed because, well, I know how it works and I can. How bad is that!! We all have sins and we can hate the sins, yet not the sinner. We can all hate the course cutter, doper, loud mouth, speeder, etc and still accept the person.

Thanks for accepting and pointing out our humanity,

I agree with your comments on human psychy and the fleeting thoughts I've had like "hey, I could just stop now...why complete the 3rd lap." Those are fleeting thoughts during the race that are really about the brain trying to find creative ways to make the pain stop. I admit I've had them. But this is where we disagree. There is a huge difference between the thought and the act. This person not only acted on the thought but apparently planned on ways to maximize her chances of successfully cheating. IMHO there is a huge difference between hearing a tiny voice in the moment that observes an opportunity to essentially quit versus a person who actually plans for and creates opportunities to cheat. Further, I don't think your analogy of a speeding ticket (doesn't everyone break the rules a little?) is incorrect. If I choose to drive over the speed limit, I hurt no one other than myself (if caught). A race cheat takes something away from every other competitor.

So, no, I don't "accept the person" who cheats.
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree with you, Dan, to a point. We are all human. However, I would only stand by said friend if they came clean and admitted their actions were wrong and hurtful. This is not the case here.

I have a friend who dealt drugs, something that is disgusting to me. He went to jail, admitted his crime and paid for it.

If Julie is truly the person her friends claim she is, she would be telling the painful truth, and we can all move on.

Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
"What I care is that what was taken from others is restored (podium placements, Kona slots etc) and that measures are put in place so that neither Julie Miller nor anyone in our community can easily circumvent the system."

so, i called triathlon canada about this. you have this athlete. do you have an interest in what's going on? either helping her be vindicated, or if she's guilty helping inoculate future competitors against the specter of course cutting?

at first, it took me one entire conversation just to convince the media liaison person that, yes, IM Canada was sanctioned by the NF. but i got a follow up email:

"please note that while the course was sanctioned by Triathlon BC, the race competition rules for the event are enforced and sanctioned by World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) and its franchisees, and therefore any participant infringement and/or appeal will be a matter for WTC. As noted previously, I therefore suggest you direct your queries to the WTC organisation or Ironman Canada for further comment and information."

so, the idea that you're going to get triathlon canada to take ANY interest AT ALL in anything that includes participation in an ironman race must be considered against the paragraph quoted above.

so, somebody cuts a course, and let's leave ms. miller out of it. somebody cuts a course. an american man. an australian woman. just, in general. let us assume that the course cutting was found to be deliberate. you might determine this because of multiple factors (no chip + course cut), or multiple races where this occurred, or eyewitnesses. i won't recommend what constitutes proof, just, let's assume that you're pretty confident there's proof of the intention to cut the course.

in which bucket to you throw this infraction? is intentional course cutting a single-race-specific violation, like littering? or a suspension-from-racing violation?

most competitors think it's a suspension-type violation, but most race organizations and federations do not treat it with the same ardency.

i'm not going to opine right now on where we ought to be on this; what we ought to do, as a sport. i don't know. i just know there's a gulf between what athletes probably want and what federations are prepared to do. they have no problem suspending you for a year if you use your buddies ID in a race, but how many of these other suspensions occur?

Dan, you've hit the nail on the head here. THIS needs to be addressed. Where is the governance? It seems actions that threaten the integrity of our sport must be uniformly monitored, policed and sanctioned by the governing bodies. In this case Triathlon Canada, and USAT in the U.S. Doping and course cutting come to mind as offenses that should fall under their jurisdiction.

Has Tri Canada taken any action in this case? Or announced intention to do so? Assuming they have not (based on your inquiries above), how can we use this case as a catalyst for change?

Scott
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"how can we use this case as a catalyst for change?"

i don't think this case has anything in particular to do with it. probably 2 or 3 times a month we have these kinds of threads. what we have now are a lot of lap courses. we have a lot of timing data. i think one possibility would be macro data analysis. could you write programs that analyze data for anomalies? for example, a run or bike split that is way out of whack with the pace of other splits? you have this flagged data, and the timers then look at that data more closely, to see if there's anything there.

this would be a tool for the front-line battle. if i were an NF, i might spend my money here, a grant for somebody to write code that analyzes raw timing data, making sure that this code was available to any timing company.

but then you need to figure out what constitutes behavior warranting a suspension that survives just that single race. you codify it, you put it in the rules or in the code of ethics, and in the waiver you make sure everyone agrees to abide by the rules (as is now the case). what we have now are races and NF making ad hoc decisions, and they're afraid of the consequences of their decisions, so they're timid. but if we had guidelines, and behaviors that triggered consequences, as we have with drafting, doping, etc., then i think RDs and NFs would be more confident in their decisions.

this is where the NF has a role to play. if you are found to have not completed the prescribed course X times in Y months or years, you get a suspension for 1yr, or 2yr, whatever. or if you have 3 incidences of losing timing chip + not completing the course in 24 months. whatever. that seems a discussion worth having, because more and more of these cases are popping up. either this kind of behavior is really ramping up, or it's always been there but now it's easier to find these incidences. so, rather than hand wringing about what to do in each case, if we had a set of guidelines prescribing what we do, then i think NFs and RDs would know what actions to take, and they'd know that the athletes agree to this process as a condition of racing.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well said, I couldn't agree more.

So, the question is how we, the constituents, can inspire the NF to take action. You have the power of holding the microphone that broadcasts our voice, and the spotlight that can put daylight on the issue. Do you plan to use those tools? How can we help?

Scott
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
you're broadcasting your voice right now. i'm hosting the speech, you're the speech. it's highly unlikely what you're writing now is not going to come to the attention of USAT and triathlon canada at a minimum, as well as the leading edge timing companies like sportstats.

if you want to amplify this broadcast then i suggest some of you who are social media savvy might push it out via your own social media. we may as well push on our own facebook page and twitter feed.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, it makes me feel better to know you think my voice counts. It would make me feel even better to see something, anything, from the NF saying they are aware of the issue and will address it. The silence on this (and stories such as the IMC border crossing scandal) is what bothers me most.

My social media starts and ends with Slowtwitch. I'd respond to a poll, I'd participate in a discussion of the what the rules, enforcement and consequences should be, I'd add my name to a petition to the NFs, I'd contribute money to a credible solution. I'm just appealing to you to give me (us) those vehicles, because you are the most influential person I have access to.

Put it on the front page and go from there.

Scott
Quote Reply

Prev Next