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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Vampy] [ In reply to ]
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Where did that info come from ?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Squish] [ In reply to ]
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Squish wrote:
Previous races with more 'normal' finish times

Pacific Road Runners First Half, Half Marathon 2013

573 1:46:15 JULIE MILLEE 1604 F 35-39 30/155 186/1059 1:45:53 0:49:56 5:03 SQUAMISH BC 61.98% 599 1:45:12

Sunshine Coast April Fool’s Run 2013 (half Marathon)


314 Julie Miller F35-39 129 35 7 01:46:33.0

A 1:46 open marathon puts her at ~ a 42 VDOT. Using Ale Martinez's nifty IM marathon estimator one would expect her to be able to run somewhere between a 4:39 @ 75% of threshold to a 4:22 if she could hold 80% of threshold. For a half IM we're talking about her being able to do between 1:56 and 1:50 if she was able to hold 90 to 95% of threshold pace. But maybe she had a really great day/s;)

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i think we see that it's possible to make a mistake. so i'd like you all to be very, very careful when posting pics and drawing conclusions about race performances.

There is also the issue of screw ups from other sources leading to further speculation leading down the wrong path.

The more I have been involved with this the more I understand how little I knew until I had looked through an absolute mass of evidence. Julie Miller's China result is a case in point. The results on the ITU page bear very little resemblance to Miller's times in the race - swim, bike, run or whatever - that run time is not where the issue lies. Why there is such a random collection of numbers added beside Millers name is anyone's guess. You can't simply trust what you see on screen.

You have to dig deeper to ensure that figure is correct, and it isn't .... I am not sure, according to her friend, that she is even claiming a 1:23 to be accurate with her friend claiming "she think more like a 1:40 something." But that's what it states in the results table for whatever reason.

So .... my preference, or more accurately 'advice', would be that anyone looking long and hard at Miller's China run time should look elsewhere. Her run is, as far as I can see, not an issue and the 1:23 is a red herring.

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone know where Kip Litton is now?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Anyone know where Kip Litton is now?

He's had a sex change and moved to Canada.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
mortysct, i'm sorry to have had to move your post. email or PM me if you want the text of your post and i'll send it to you for edits pursuant to a report. if you're going to talk about julie miller's swim, or call into question any other race she's done beyond the 3 that have been the topic of DQs in this and other threads, i'd prefer it be fact- and evidence-based, or if it's opinion make sure it's couched as such.

No offence taken. Not sure what you would like to edit though. She swam a 30 min 1500 in Motala, previously has done a lot of sub hour IM swims. It is "not normal".

Endurance coach
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
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mortysct wrote:
Slowman wrote:
mortysct, i'm sorry to have had to move your post. email or PM me if you want the text of your post and i'll send it to you for edits pursuant to a report. if you're going to talk about julie miller's swim, or call into question any other race she's done beyond the 3 that have been the topic of DQs in this and other threads, i'd prefer it be fact- and evidence-based, or if it's opinion make sure it's couched as such.


No offence taken. Not sure what you would like to edit though. She swam a 30 min 1500 in Motala, previously has done a lot of sub hour IM swims. It is "not normal".

Those sub 60 min IM swims were done on a course where you don't get out of the water for "chip in" before starting loop 2. At IM Canada Whistler, you just stay in the water and start your second loop. The start of the second loop is around 300m from shore, so after the second loop you swim that final 300m. Would be really easy for someone to just take it each and do "three sides of the rectangle" in a leisurely 45-50 min with some raft breaks with the 100 min swimmers and then as the leaders catch up on their loop 2, just swim as much as you can with those swimmers and blend in. From shore you can't tell if the person swimming into the finish is a 58 min swimmer or much slower.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
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mortysct wrote:
Slowman wrote:
mortysct, i'm sorry to have had to move your post. email or PM me if you want the text of your post and i'll send it to you for edits pursuant to a report. if you're going to talk about julie miller's swim, or call into question any other race she's done beyond the 3 that have been the topic of DQs in this and other threads, i'd prefer it be fact- and evidence-based, or if it's opinion make sure it's couched as such.


No offence taken. Not sure what you would like to edit though. She swam a 30 min 1500 in Motala, previously has done a lot of sub hour IM swims. It is "not normal".


I just ended up on the IM livestream website to see if I could catch some coverage and ended up on the IMC swim exit video:


http://livestream.com/ironman/events/4219570

Around 13 minutes in, you see many of the FOP swimmers. I know several of these athletes. As I thought, looking at the swimmers coming in from land, you really can't tell who is a 1 lap course cutter or 2 lap legit swimmer
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
y_nigel wrote:
Wow this things sure has some legs!


The ironic thing is, if she'd stuck her hand up and admitted she cheated, this thread wouldn't have even hit 2 pages, she'd have been DQ'd from IM Canada and the Vancouver half and perhaps that would have been the end of it. Now she's facing more DQs, WTC suspension, possibly even fraud charges and all because she is so arrogant she still thinks she can get away with it.. bizarre...

this is just the beginning. if i was the person that missed out on kona because of her i would lawyer up. not only she did she steal a podium slot from someone she robbed them of a whole year of training. robbed them of a podium award etc etc etc.

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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She needs to take a page out of the other people that have stole from a sport and just come clean and move on. Without coming clean, this will continue for weeks, months and years and leave a continued stain on her name. The evidence is compelling and only coming clean will make this go away quicker and allow everyone involved to move on.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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BMANX wrote:
She needs to take a page out of the other people that have stole from a sport and just come clean and move on. Without coming clean, this will continue for weeks, months and years and leave a continued stain on her name. The evidence is compelling and only coming clean will make this go away quicker and allow everyone involved to move on.

Not really.

If she quits competing in triathlon, she won't have to deal with it. She's not a professional triathlete.

Only a small group of a small group of mostly IM distance triathletes care about this. You can say "what about her having to live in her own community?" Well, the outraged group is only a tiny subset of even in her local community. The newspaper articles? I would suspect that even folks that read it probably don't care all that much. And there are no more legs to the story. No future employer is going to give a shit. Even IF they question her (a big if), she would say "I didn't do it". And that would be that.

I know KQ is a big deal for small group of people... I'd be pissed if someone stole my spot... but the outrage of stealing a person's kona spot does not extend beyond that group.

So... will this be referenced on ST in the future? Sure, like other threads. But, do you know what's happened to Finman? T3 woman? Others? Yes, still referenced as greatest threads of all time, but I'm sure those people are going about their lives just fine. Albeit, maybe outside of triathlon (although, maybe not?)

She can easily make this go away from her life. Granted, she wouldn't be training or racing IMs anymore. But she can make it go away.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
BMANX wrote:
She needs to take a page out of the other people that have stole from a sport and just come clean and move on. Without coming clean, this will continue for weeks, months and years and leave a continued stain on her name. The evidence is compelling and only coming clean will make this go away quicker and allow everyone involved to move on.


Not really.

If she quits competing in triathlon, she won't have to deal with it. She's not a professional triathlete.

Only a small group of a small group of mostly IM distance triathletes care about this. You can say "what about her having to live in her own community?" Well, the outraged group is only a tiny subset of even in her local community. The newspaper articles? I would suspect that even folks that read it probably don't care all that much. And there are no more legs to the story. No future employer is going to give a shit. Even IF they question her (a big if), she would say "I didn't do it". And that would be that.

I know KQ is a big deal for small group of people... I'd be pissed if someone stole my spot... but the outrage of stealing a person's kona spot does not extend beyond that group.

So... will this be referenced on ST in the future? Sure, like other threads. But, do you know what's happened to Finman? T3 woman? Others? Yes, still referenced as greatest threads of all time, but I'm sure those people are going about their lives just fine. Albeit, maybe outside of triathlon (although, maybe not?)

She can easily make this go away from her life. Granted, she wouldn't be training or racing IMs anymore. But she can make it go away.

I think the outrage only extends into the group of people sharing Kona AND into one's own community if you have positioned yourself in any capacity as some type of community leader/contributor etc. I would say that if I was nailed for course cutting and that hit the local paper, it would be really hard to make it "go away" given my involvement locally in youth sport and in the technology community. Cheating in competitive sport would substantially spill over to community and professional life. It just depends on how much involvement one has outside of sport in the local community. If a person leads a very private life, it would make almost no difference as you said.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think you might be overstating how people view these things in the community. In Toronto, Michael Barry is still welcomed with open arms in the cycling community. Technically, he is a liar and a drug cheat. People seem fine with that being one part of his life.

I think many of us forget how relatively insignificant our sport world is in the larger context of society. This isn't a story outside of the tiny triathlon community. You aren't going to hear people whispering about it in the streets of BC.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
I think you might be overstating how people view these things in the community. In Toronto, Michael Barry is still welcomed with open arms in the cycling community. Technically, he is a liar and a drug cheat. People seem fine with that being one part of his life.

I think many of us forget how relatively insignificant our sport world is in the larger context of society. This isn't a story outside of the tiny triathlon community. You aren't going to hear people whispering about it in the streets of BC.

I think the scenario is different in Toronto for Barry and keep in mind we're talking about an age grouper and showing face in their local community outside sport. It probably would not matter what you cheat at, if you're involved in the community be it as a youth coach, volunteer, organizer etc and the word gets out that you cheated in another part of your life and it was in the local paper, you're probably not that welcome to do what you were doing in your community. Michael Barry, is a bad example because he was not involved in any local community in any capacity. We was just a pro tour cyclist.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Jctriguy wrote:
I think you might be overstating how people view these things in the community. In Toronto, Michael Barry is still welcomed with open arms in the cycling community. Technically, he is a liar and a drug cheat. People seem fine with that being one part of his life.

I think many of us forget how relatively insignificant our sport world is in the larger context of society. This isn't a story outside of the tiny triathlon community. You aren't going to hear people whispering about it in the streets of BC.

I think the scenario is different in Toronto for Barry and keep in mind we're talking about an age grouper and showing face in their local community outside sport. It probably would not matter what you cheat at, if you're involved in the community be it as a youth coach, volunteer, organizer etc and the word gets out that you cheated in another part of your life and it was in the local paper, you're probably not that welcome to do what you were doing in your community. Michael Barry, is a bad example because he was not involved in any local community in any capacity. We was just a pro tour cyclist.

I'll agree to disagree. People have an amazing ability to ignore little 'facts' like cheating. Probably more people support the woman in question compared to the number throwing stones. She will tell close friends it was all BS and they were out to get her. She wasn't convicted of anything, she didn't break any laws. This isn't like coming back from jail or a sex offender. It's someone that maybe cheated in sport, or maybe not, depending on how an unaware population views the situation.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Jctriguy wrote:
I think you might be overstating how people view these things in the community. In Toronto, Michael Barry is still welcomed with open arms in the cycling community. Technically, he is a liar and a drug cheat. People seem fine with that being one part of his life.

I think many of us forget how relatively insignificant our sport world is in the larger context of society. This isn't a story outside of the tiny triathlon community. You aren't going to hear people whispering about it in the streets of BC.


I think the scenario is different in Toronto for Barry and keep in mind we're talking about an age grouper and showing face in their local community outside sport. It probably would not matter what you cheat at, if you're involved in the community be it as a youth coach, volunteer, organizer etc and the word gets out that you cheated in another part of your life and it was in the local paper, you're probably not that welcome to do what you were doing in your community. Michael Barry, is a bad example because he was not involved in any local community in any capacity. We was just a pro tour cyclist.


Dev- totally agree with you. In my opinion, she would probably need to separate herself from her local triathlon scene - training, racing, coaching, etc. (of course, she could still SBR) to have it totally die down.

Is it me, or do these sorts of threads (this one being quite a doozy) mainly pop up at end of NA tri season? Seems ST always gets very ornery in Late Aug--Oct. when people have more time on their hands (and of course, most races completed...so there are actual infractions to analyze and shine a light on).
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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This started in July. Don't show up late to the film and say it was crap because you only watched the credits.

I think this situation is somewhat unique because it appears to be consistent over a few years. It involves, 1st Places, Qualifying Spots, Championship Titles, all taken from others. Money and Air Miles have been pocketed on the back of these results. Plus she;s an Age Grouper .... she's one of us, or at least was. Finally, the person in question has heavily promoted herself within the community, newspaper articles, magazine articles, online blogs and Facebook Pages as a World Champion, someone with integrity (mentioned in a surprising number of places) and promoter of supporting other women, a shining example to other Mums and their kids. It's was a perfect storm when the truth came out. The massive juxtaposition of what people thought and what is actually happening.

At least with pro cyclists what people think is very much what was / is actually happening so when people get caught there is no paradigm shift.

I think once the dust settles, and previous races finally stop being 'found out', a story summarising the affair would probably make very interesting reading.


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Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Sep 7, 15 6:47
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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That reminds me - the Lance film is out next month.

I'm seeing Charlize Theron in the title role for this adaptation.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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I checked the photos and there were no timing mats at the turnaround points on the run, there was however a fella with a pen and paper at the far turnaround taking your bib number. Amazing considering it was a world championship event.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
BMANX wrote:
She needs to take a page out of the other people that have stole from a sport and just come clean and move on. Without coming clean, this will continue for weeks, months and years and leave a continued stain on her name. The evidence is compelling and only coming clean will make this go away quicker and allow everyone involved to move on.

Not really.

If she quits competing in triathlon, she won't have to deal with it. She's not a professional triathlete.

Only a small group of a small group of mostly IM distance triathletes care about this. You can say "what about her having to live in her own community?" Well, the outraged group is only a tiny subset of even in her local community. The newspaper articles? I would suspect that even folks that read it probably don't care all that much. And there are no more legs to the story. No future employer is going to give a shit. Even IF they question her (a big if), she would say "I didn't do it". And that would be that.

I know KQ is a big deal for small group of people... I'd be pissed if someone stole my spot... but the outrage of stealing a person's kona spot does not extend beyond that group.

So... will this be referenced on ST in the future? Sure, like other threads. But, do you know what's happened to Finman? T3 woman? Others? Yes, still referenced as greatest threads of all time, but I'm sure those people are going about their lives just fine. Albeit, maybe outside of triathlon (although, maybe not?)

She can easily make this go away from her life. Granted, she wouldn't be training or racing IMs anymore. But she can make it go away.

You may be right. But if the allegations are true she could be prosecuted for fraud for soliciting donations from the community. My history in situations similar to this is that peopke are willing to forgive and forget until their own money is involved.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i think we see that it's possible to make a mistake. so i'd like you all to be very, very careful when posting pics and drawing conclusions about race performances.


There is also the issue of screw ups from other sources leading to further speculation leading down the wrong path.

The more I have been involved with this the more I understand how little I knew until I had looked through an absolute mass of evidence. Julie Miller's China result is a case in point. The results on the ITU page bear very little resemblance to Miller's times in the race - swim, bike, run or whatever - that run time is not where the issue lies. Why there is such a random collection of numbers added beside Millers name is anyone's guess. You can't simply trust what you see on screen.

You have to dig deeper to ensure that figure is correct, and it isn't .... I am not sure, according to her friend, that she is even claiming a 1:23 to be accurate with her friend claiming "she think more like a 1:40 something." But that's what it states in the results table for whatever reason.

So .... my preference, or more accurately 'advice', would be that anyone looking long and hard at Miller's China run time should look elsewhere. Her run is, as far as I can see, not an issue and the 1:23 is a red herring.

Wait a second... if her run was closer to 1:40 you would have to take a cumulative 17 minutes off her swim and bike splits. She had one of the fastest bike splits and her swim time looks legit compared to her other 'normal' swim performannces. So I'm not sure I understand where she could have shaved 17 minutes off her swim and bike times?

Also someone mentioned that at Weihai there was a person with a clipboard writing down bib numbers at the run turnaround, but according to the course map there were 2 run U-turns on each loop. Was there someone checking bib numbers at both? If an athlete realised after a couple of laps that the shorter run out-and-back was not being monitored then they could have been tempted to cut it short.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [davec] [ In reply to ]
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davec wrote:
Dan Funk wrote:
BMANX wrote:
She needs to take a page out of the other people that have stole from a sport and just come clean and move on. Without coming clean, this will continue for weeks, months and years and leave a continued stain on her name. The evidence is compelling and only coming clean will make this go away quicker and allow everyone involved to move on.


Not really.

If she quits competing in triathlon, she won't have to deal with it. She's not a professional triathlete.

Only a small group of a small group of mostly IM distance triathletes care about this. You can say "what about her having to live in her own community?" Well, the outraged group is only a tiny subset of even in her local community. The newspaper articles? I would suspect that even folks that read it probably don't care all that much. And there are no more legs to the story. No future employer is going to give a shit. Even IF they question her (a big if), she would say "I didn't do it". And that would be that.

I know KQ is a big deal for small group of people... I'd be pissed if someone stole my spot... but the outrage of stealing a person's kona spot does not extend beyond that group.

So... will this be referenced on ST in the future? Sure, like other threads. But, do you know what's happened to Finman? T3 woman? Others? Yes, still referenced as greatest threads of all time, but I'm sure those people are going about their lives just fine. Albeit, maybe outside of triathlon (although, maybe not?)

She can easily make this go away from her life. Granted, she wouldn't be training or racing IMs anymore. But she can make it go away.


You may be right. But if the allegations are true she could be prosecuted for fraud for soliciting donations from the community. My history in situations similar to this is that peopke are willing to forgive and forget until their own money is involved.
Which is one reason why she won't come clean... because an apology like that could be used against her.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]
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The woman who "lost" her Kona slot did get it. She didn't loose a year of training. The idea of her getting a lawyer to go after Miller is ridiculous.

The worst thing (in my mind) is that she was a Whistler athlete, so while she did get her Kona slot (eventually), she lost the opportunity to hold it up on stage in front of her home town crowd.

Trying to quantify that loss as a dollar amount is an exercise in futility. More lawyers improves nothing in a situation like this.
Last edited by: captain-tri: Sep 7, 15 9:58
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]
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i agree with you. but i believe a few of the comments come from the USA....the land of suing everyone for anything.

in canada...it would be a waste of time to sue for anything related to this story. And for julie, she most likely won't have any legal issue other than been shamed in a very small community in squamish and most likely have to find a new hobby as everyone knows the story now. She won't be welcome back in triathlon.

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
i agree with you. but i believe a few of the comments come from the USA....the land of suing everyone for anything.

in canada...it would be a waste of time to sue for anything related to this story. And for julie, she most likely won't have any legal issue other than been shamed in a very small community in squamish and most likely have to find a new hobby as everyone knows the story now. She won't be welcome back in triathlon.

I'll never deny that we are sue-happy south of the border, but don't forget that we're all on notice to speak carefully because of contact that Dan got from her [presumably Canadian] lawyer.
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