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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Gotcha.

So then no more "she should be automatically DQ'd from Weihai because she was DQ'd from the qualifying race", right?


Chris Harris
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan ... can you clarify what you wrote in the FB conversation on ST's front page.

Are you saying that she has been officially banned from FUTURE WTC races? If so, for how long? I've read WTC's statements concerning the IMC DQs, but haven't seen anything about banning from future races.


===
Can you clarify the verbiage? Is she DQ'ed from only WTC-owned events or has she been banned from other organization's races?
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Dan Empfield
Publisher at Slowtwitch
According to Ironman, both Ironman owned and Ironman licensed events, whether full or half distance, along with some others.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JorgeRamos] [ In reply to ]
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According to the TriCan website, that would have been the 2013 Vancouver Half. it was also timed by SportStats. She took third with a 4:56:xx.

http://www.triathlon.org/...tional_championships


You can find her splits here:

https://www.sportstats.ca/...&category=F35-39

Anyone have photos from that race?
Last edited by: SasquatchRuns: Sep 4, 15 11:54
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
it would be like the New York Yankees cheating their way into the playoffs and emerging as world champion

Or you know like the Patriots cheating their way to the Super Bowl and then emerging as the Super Bowl champions :)

Too soon?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [fe_dad] [ In reply to ]
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whether somebody should be DQd from one race because they were retroactively DQd from the race that qualified them is way beyond my scope. but yes, you're right.

bear in mind that ironman did not make a finding of cheating. it made a finding of having not completed the course. the suspension is for that infraction having occurred more than once. everyone is free to draw his own conclusion as to what was the driver behind the incompletion of the course, but what we lack, now, is a roadmap for how one might be found to have purposely cut the course versus inadvertently cut the course.

this is why i'm giving governing bodies a little slack. for them to suspend an athlete, is a finding of fraudulent behavior implicit the suspension? if so, then we're asking an NF to go further than ironman has gone.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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"Are you saying that she has been officially banned from FUTURE WTC races?"

yes.

"If so, for how long?"

indeterminate.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
Anyone have photos from that race?

http://cti.photoshelter.com/...ND=t&_ACT=search
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
According to the TriCan website, that would have been the 2013 Vancouver Half. it was also timed by SportStats. She took third with a 4:56:xx.

http://www.triathlon.org/...tional_championships


You can find her splits here:

https://www.sportstats.ca/...&category=F35-39

Anyone have photos from that race?


I just looked at those splits and they look fairly legit for a front of pack local athlete. It also corroborates to me that a 32 min half IM swimmer cannot magically become a 57-58 min full IM swimmer. Also a 1:40 20K half IM runner does not turn in some of the times she has posted at IM's during the run.

At the surface it looks like a legit qual for Weihei 2014 so no reason to remove her from Weihei on account of fraudulently qualifying (unless some other evidence is produced from Vancouver 2013). For the British athlete to get her world title from Weihei, there would now need to be some hard evidence of course cutting at Weihei assuming there is nothing hard from Vancouver 2013. At least the splits that show up in sportstats don't seem totally out of whack in any sport for a decent athlete.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Sep 4, 15 12:05
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [harshc] [ In reply to ]
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harshc wrote:
Quote:
it would be like the New York Yankees cheating their way into the playoffs and emerging as world champion


Or you know like the Patriots cheating their way to the Super Bowl and then emerging as the Super Bowl champions :)

Too soon?

The thought did cross my mind. Technically the Pat's should have been thrown out retroactively....kind of like Nibali getting a tow from the team car and the Vuelta throwing him out after reviewing what happened in that stage, or actually more like Floyd or Lance winning the TdF and then being stripped after the fact. But, hey, let's stick to the topic at hand and not turn this into a Tom Brady thread. Julie Miller's conformance to racing rules and associated evidence is what slowman told us to focus on in here.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
But, hey, let's stick to the topic at hand and not turn this into a Tom Brady thread. Julie Miller's conformance to racing rules and associated evidence is what slowman told us to focus on in here.

Fair enough :)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Haven't read whole thread but i just can not see how one single amateur triathlete merits 520 posts, unless she murdered someone to win her AG:)

That probably would have been more acceptable around here, provided she did not cut the course to do so
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
SasquatchRuns wrote:
Anyone have photos from that race?
http://cti.photoshelter.com/...ND=t&_ACT=search[/quote[/url]]


What is going on here?? two different individuals with the same bib number? in the same race?? was it a relay?? I must be missing somethign here right?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Z28Diddy] [ In reply to ]
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Z28Diddy wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Haven't read whole thread but i just can not see how one single amateur triathlete merits 520 posts, unless she murdered someone to win her AG:)


That probably would have been more acceptable around here, provided she did not cut the course to do so

Around here, stealing a Kona slot or winning a world championship is likely as bad as murder. It's basically the triathlon equivalent since we have no one shooting at each other in races (yet). The analysis of results is fairly justified.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JorgeRamos] [ In reply to ]
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I was thrown off by that at first, too - it appears that those are two different races by looking at the tags on the pictures. The male 231 is racing Victoria, while the female 231 (JM) is racing Vancouver.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Z28Diddy wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
Haven't read whole thread but i just can not see how one single amateur triathlete merits 520 posts, unless she murdered someone to win her AG:)


That probably would have been more acceptable around here, provided she did not cut the course to do so


Around here, stealing a Kona slot or winning a world championship is likely as bad as murder. It's basically the triathlon equivalent since we have no one shooting at each other in races (yet). The analysis of results is fairly justified.

Sorry - regular reader, not regular contributor around here. Was being sarcastic, maybe I should have made that pink?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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ahhh right, the file names are different, one starts with VanTri-Run and the other with VicTri-Run.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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i think we see that it's possible to make a mistake. so i'd like you all to be very, very careful when posting pics and drawing conclusions about race performances. you might want to check and double check what you're about to post. there are people here who've established their bona fides at doing good investigative work. you might want to send one of them a PM, have them double-check what you're thinking of posting. you're not talking about roads and lakes and handlebar tape and anaerobic threshold. the subjects of these musings are people.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peeg] [ In reply to ]
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peeg wrote:
Maybe the 2013 Vancouver half?

She placed 3rd in her age group, so that was probably good enough to qualify.

The raceheadquarters stat results in 2013 didn't include the splits as they did with the 2014 results. Without having those somehow appear, it's pretty hard to figure out if there were any anomalies in the results. They aren't far off from 2014 results, for what it's worth.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
peeg wrote:
Maybe the 2013 Vancouver half?


She placed 3rd in her age group, so that was probably good enough to qualify.


The raceheadquarters stat results in 2013 didn't include the splits as they did with the 2014 results. Without having those somehow appear, it's pretty hard to figure out if there were any anomalies in the results. They aren't far off from 2014 results, for what it's worth.

Brent



Yeah, it looks like the splits were added in 2014. raw text doesn't have anything in 2013
http://rhq.sportstats.ca:8085/...i/VancTri2013HI.html


Compared to 2014 where there were lots of splits for bike and run
http://rhq.sportstats.ca:8085/...i/VancTri2014LD.html
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peeg] [ In reply to ]
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Did Julie Miller only start racing in 2013? Now that more of these suspicious results are coming to a conclusion (DQ, or not enough solid evidence to DQ), I'm curious about all the rest of her results and how they plot up against the ones she has been DQ'd for. 10ks? Half marathons? Sprint or Oly triathlons? HS or College track or XC results? Or is it really that a 40-44 year old female just suddenly started racing 2 years ago and this is all the data points we have?

I'm not so much interested in finding more races to DQ her from, just trying to see the whole body of evidence and her track record so when she makes a statement that she believes her times are legit and that she is indeed world champion caliber...we have a backdrop of valid (or at least not proven invalid) results to compare that against.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

I appreciate what you have written here - it is very well said - in particular with regards to the human side of the subject matter. I also thank you for the manner in which you have (very effectively) moderated this topic.

Michael
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Your Brady/Pats comment is completely subjective and has no merit. As well as it being a sanction mandated by the rules, your point ignores the concept of proportionality - would any rule infraction however trivial lead to expulsion from a tournament? Get a grip and, as you say, stay on topic.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [mlawless] [ In reply to ]
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mlawless wrote:
Dan,

I appreciate what you have written here - it is very well said - in particular with regards to the human side of the subject matter. I also thank you for the manner in which you have (very effectively) moderated this topic.

Michael

x's 10000. Compared to the cluster that Letsrun created on the Rossi situation, this was clinical, to the point and appropriate. Thank you, Dan!

**************************************

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [cocojunior] [ In reply to ]
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cocojunior wrote:
Your Brady/Pats comment is completely subjective and has no merit. As well as it being a sanction mandated by the rules, your point ignores the concept of proportionality - would any rule infraction however trivial lead to expulsion from a tournament? Get a grip and, as you say, stay on topic.
Maybe if I put that post in pink it would be more clear. Some may argue that deflating substantially changes outcomes, much like course cutting does and neither is minor. In the tri world, we view course cutting as major. In other sports I don't know how that violation is viewed. I think the Seahawks might view it differently if it does change the ability to accurately throw and catch. But hey, I don't play football anymore and barely follow what is going on. But the topic of proportionality that you bring up is valid and relates to a thread going on elsewhere here on how we view dopers and course cutters. I am of the mind that both are equally bad. I don't know which one is worse, but if Julie Miller is found to have course cut in several events (kind of like multiple doping busts in the vein of Ben Johnson) then they should roll up to an equivalent ban.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't she say that she wasn't much of a swimmer ? She seems pretty good here ?
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