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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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"It seems that there was a bit of a mess in the Weihai timings"

earlier in this thread i asked for folks who did that race and who have independent (e.g., garmin) data supporting the thesis that the splits were correct, or that they bore no attachment to accuracy. i have gotten one response so far (and to that athlete, thank you).

what i see when i look at those results on the ITU's site are a lot of missing T2 times. T2 = 0:00. does that mean a faulting or insensitive timing wire in or out of T2, or a route available to the athletes in or out of T2 that allowed them to avoid the timing wire? in this case, was the T2 time sucked up into the bike or run splits?

i think it would be illustrative to find out exactly what happened in weihai. the ITU told me it has inquired of the timing company, which means its in touch with the timing company. if the timing company can contact me, or if i could be put into contact with it, and if athletes in that race with independent data and who can verify that the recorded splits are accurate or not can contact me, it would be appreciated.



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peeg] [ In reply to ]
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I did this exact same analysis, and came up with the same results.

I also looked at some of the other pictures placing her with other athletes after 2-4k of the run. Based on her split from these pictures(the other athletes splits at 6,9k), she ran a very "human" pace the first few k's (5-6 min/k). To further confirm her cutting - the pics show her in this location 2 times with 30-40 min apart. This suggests she left the course before the 6,9 k mat - and reentered 30-40 min later (now without her chip) and ran 1 lap. I can post the pics/splits later if anyone is interested.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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That said, I don't see THAT much 'odd' about the bike and run splits, per the data online. I don't see anyone with unusually fast bike splits and then unusually slow run splits, or vice versa - only the few missing T2 splits.

Reportedly they don't have the run lap data, so maybe they have 're-built' some of the splits using other information (finish line photos?), but if all they have had to do is incorporate some missing T2 splits into either an athlete's bike or run splits, then this doesn't change too much.

Did the athlete who contacted you have consistent data with the posted results, or you'd rather not say yet?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be interested to see that.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
I did this exact same analysis, and came up with the same results.

That's great to hear... I think there were a few of us, and its good to know you came to the same conclusion. I trust that means I won't be contacted by any lawyers :)

lovegoat wrote:
I also looked at some of the other pictures placing her with other athletes after 2-4k of the run. Based on her split from these pictures(the other athletes splits at 6,9k), she ran a very "human" pace the first few k's (5-6 min/k). To further confirm her cutting - the pics show her in this location 2 times with 30-40 min apart. This suggests she left the course before the 6,9 k mat - and reentered 30-40 min later (now without her chip) and ran 1 lap. I can post the pics/splits later if anyone is interested.

I tried looking at the other photos, but I couldn't say 100% what was going on, so I went with the ones on the bridge.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
peeg wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
well presented. based on that evidence, and the rationale used for DQ'ing her from this year's IMC, I don't see how WTC could NOT DQ her from IMC 2013. If they didn't, it would be inconsistent.


An article has been posted on the main page
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ds_Athlete_5326.html

That's good that they have now also DQ'd her for the 2013 IMC race.

For the 2014 ITU Worlds in Weihai, it appears that the ITU do not have access to the run lap split data, which means they cannot do a similar analysis as WTC has done, even if there were photos of her in close proximity to other athletes. However, the ITU could still DQ her based on an "unreasonable" total run time - unreasonable being based on comparisons to her performances elsewhere. It seems that there was a bit of a mess in the Weihai timings, but even if they thought JM's bike time may have been longer (it is extremely unlikely it could have been shorter, as she had one of the fastest bike splits in her AG), then this would mean her run split would have been even quicker. So either a) her bike split is accurate and she ran a 6:48/mile pace for the 20km run, which seems unreasonable enough for a DQ, or b) her bike split was longer and she would have had to run even faster than that (ie. also a DQ).

I suspect ITU have concluded that a 6:48/mile run pace is close enough to possible that they don't feel they can DQ her, but it's sad that she is clinging on to someone else's (Victoria Hill's) World Champion title in the face of all the overwhelming evidence.

Edit to fix quotes

Although the ITU doesn't feel they have the data to disqualify her, couldn't the Canadian Tri Federation recommend her for retroactive disqualification based on the preponderance of the evidence...or somehow rescind her credentials in a manner that would allow the ITU to act? Given that she is up to 3 disqualifications that span before and after Wehai, including her qualifying race, it would be honorable thing to do as a nation given that no one in the sport believes she actually performed at that level.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peacedout] [ In reply to ]
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Ill try just copy the link to my note covering all my research

https://www.evernote.com/...674b849bb644f177d0fd
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Although the ITU doesn't feel they have the data to disqualify her, couldn't the Canadian Tri Federation recommend her for retroactive disqualification based on the preponderance of the evidence...or somehow rescind her credentials in a manner that would allow the ITU to act? Given that she is up to 3 disqualifications that span before and after Wehai, including her qualifying race, it would be honorable thing to do as a nation given that no one in the sport believes she actually performed at that level.

Agreed. I hope the ITU re-visits this too. According to the Vancouver Sun article they have done a review and are not taking action, but this is sad in light of the evidence and the DQ in the qualifying race. While there is no money involved, we are still talking about an AG world championship that athletes spent time and money crossing the world to race (to say nothing of their training). Also, the ITU is not some small, independent race company that should be worried about a lawsuit from JM. There is no way she would sue them and even if she did they could easily build a strong defense.

ITU: do the right thing.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
Ill try just copy the link to my note covering all my researchhttps://www.evernote.com/...674b849bb644f177d0fd[/quote[/url]]

+1
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
peeg wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
well presented. based on that evidence, and the rationale used for DQ'ing her from this year's IMC, I don't see how WTC could NOT DQ her from IMC 2013. If they didn't, it would be inconsistent.


An article has been posted on the main page
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ds_Athlete_5326.html

That's good that they have now also DQ'd her for the 2013 IMC race.

For the 2014 ITU Worlds in Weihai, it appears that the ITU do not have access to the run lap split data, which means they cannot do a similar analysis as WTC has done, even if there were photos of her in close proximity to other athletes. However, the ITU could still DQ her based on an "unreasonable" total run time - unreasonable being based on comparisons to her performances elsewhere. It seems that there was a bit of a mess in the Weihai timings, but even if they thought JM's bike time may have been longer (it is extremely unlikely it could have been shorter, as she had one of the fastest bike splits in her AG), then this would mean her run split would have been even quicker. So either a) her bike split is accurate and she ran a 6:48/mile pace for the 20km run, which seems unreasonable enough for a DQ, or b) her bike split was longer and she would have had to run even faster than that (ie. also a DQ).

I suspect ITU have concluded that a 6:48/mile run pace is close enough to possible that they don't feel they can DQ her, but it's sad that she is clinging on to someone else's (Victoria Hill's) World Champion title in the face of all the overwhelming evidence.

Edit to fix quotes


Although the ITU doesn't feel they have the data to disqualify her, couldn't the Canadian Tri Federation recommend her for retroactive disqualification based on the preponderance of the evidence...or somehow rescind her credentials in a manner that would allow the ITU to act? Given that she is up to 3 disqualifications that span before and after Wehai, including her qualifying race, it would be honorable thing to do as a nation given that no one in the sport believes she actually performed at that level.

This should be possible. She did not qualify for ITU World's per the Canadian requirements, so as someone said, it would be like the New York Yankees cheating their way into the playoffs and emerging as world champion.

Canada basically cheated its qual procedure and then used an athlete who did not qualify to steal a world championship title from Great Britain. Triathlon Canada needs to come clean, say they fielded an athlete whose presence was not valid and offer to the ITU to remove that athlete from the results.

Dev
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
Ill try just copy the link to my note covering all my research

https://www.evernote.com/...674b849bb644f177d0fd

Nicely done.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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At 508 posts, this incident needs a name.

We've had Finman, T3, Paced by a Gorilla, and Trucker Hat.

What is this one?

Miller Time?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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If you count the related/deleted threads this is easily over a 1000 posts. How about "Miller time"?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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ItsAGoodLifeIfYouTriIt
Last edited by: Mr X: Sep 4, 15 11:12
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Six minute gap between these two "Miller Time" posts?

Something's fishy

Death Rides A Pale Cow
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
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to all: notwithstanding the normal propensity of readers to have their fun, this is from the first post in this thread: "i'd prefer that you limit your posts to anything that you want to say regarding the factual elements of this particular case." can you please bear that in mind before you press the "post reply" button on your comment?



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
peeg wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
well presented. based on that evidence, and the rationale used for DQ'ing her from this year's IMC, I don't see how WTC could NOT DQ her from IMC 2013. If they didn't, it would be inconsistent.


An article has been posted on the main page
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ds_Athlete_5326.html

That's good that they have now also DQ'd her for the 2013 IMC race.

For the 2014 ITU Worlds in Weihai, it appears that the ITU do not have access to the run lap split data, which means they cannot do a similar analysis as WTC has done, even if there were photos of her in close proximity to other athletes. However, the ITU could still DQ her based on an "unreasonable" total run time - unreasonable being based on comparisons to her performances elsewhere. It seems that there was a bit of a mess in the Weihai timings, but even if they thought JM's bike time may have been longer (it is extremely unlikely it could have been shorter, as she had one of the fastest bike splits in her AG), then this would mean her run split would have been even quicker. So either a) her bike split is accurate and she ran a 6:48/mile pace for the 20km run, which seems unreasonable enough for a DQ, or b) her bike split was longer and she would have had to run even faster than that (ie. also a DQ).

I suspect ITU have concluded that a 6:48/mile run pace is close enough to possible that they don't feel they can DQ her, but it's sad that she is clinging on to someone else's (Victoria Hill's) World Champion title in the face of all the overwhelming evidence.

Edit to fix quotes


Although the ITU doesn't feel they have the data to disqualify her, couldn't the Canadian Tri Federation recommend her for retroactive disqualification based on the preponderance of the evidence...or somehow rescind her credentials in a manner that would allow the ITU to act? Given that she is up to 3 disqualifications that span before and after Wehai, including her qualifying race, it would be honorable thing to do as a nation given that no one in the sport believes she actually performed at that level.


This should be possible. She did not qualify for ITU World's per the Canadian requirements, so as someone said, it would be like the New York Yankees cheating their way into the playoffs and emerging as world champion.

Canada basically cheated its qual procedure and then used an athlete who did not qualify to steal a world championship title from Great Britain. Triathlon Canada needs to come clean, say they fielded an athlete whose presence was not valid and offer to the ITU to remove that athlete from the results.

Dev

As well as yanking the Triathlon Canada 2014 Athlete of the Year - Age Group Excellence award.

http://www.triathloncanada.com/...cellenceawards/2014/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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There is also a TriBC bursary (the Mary Leliveld Bursary Fund) that she received. Triathlon Canada will also re-imburse you your race entry and team fees if you are the defending World Champion. She would have received that for Sweden

https://twitter.com/hojuman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Am I reading the note on the front page article correctly?:

[NOTE: This article as originally published erred in reporting that the Subaru Vancouver Triathlon in July, 2014 served as a qualifier for ITU Worlds in Weihai, China in 2014. Actually, it qualified Canadians for the 2015 Long Course Worlds recently contested in Sweden. This passage has been edited accordingly].

If so, then the 2014 Vancouver race wasn't for Weihai, and she qualified for Weihai at an earlier race?


Chris Harris
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [fe_dad] [ In reply to ]
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Was just wondering the same thing. If so, what was the qualifying race and has anybody started investigating that?

Summing everything up:
- DQ'ed from IM Canada 2013
- DQ'ed from Subaru Vancouver Triathlon 2014
- DQ'ed from IM Canada 2015
- Indefinitely suspended from IM events
- We still have questionable results for China 2014. t seems fair to investigate the event that qualified her for that.
- There are also the two Test of Metal MTB races with questionable results

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Haven't read whole thread but i just can not see how one single amateur triathlete merits 520 posts, unless she murdered someone to win her AG:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe the 2013 Vancouver half?

She placed 3rd in her age group, so that was probably good enough to qualify.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peeg] [ In reply to ]
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She is a counselor at a college. Helping kids make important life choices...UGH!!!


~~~~~~~~~
Yours in golf,
PGA_MIKE
Couch Potato to IM SPUD in 4 years
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [fe_dad] [ In reply to ]
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from what i understand, it was that same vancouver half, just the 2013 edition. this served as a qualifier for the 2014 weihai race.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [peeg] [ In reply to ]
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peeg wrote:
Maybe the 2013 Vancouver half?

She placed 3rd in her age group, so that was probably good enough to qualify.

Reading this http://www.squamishchief.com/...-for-china-1.1268691:
"Miller’s breakthrough year in the sport came in 2013 with a second place finish in her age group at the Long Distance National Triathlon Championships. She was the top Canadian female in her age group at the event and that result sent her to China."
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