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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
I think it is also fascinating that the athlete appears to have lost the Blue IM Wrist Band for sections of the run course. In some photos she is wearing a Garmin GPS watch and you'll notice no signs of the wrist band. It could be covered by the second watch, but it does look like it is missing.

I suspect it's under the watch in those pictures. There is certainly no photo where there is nothing on her right wrist.

It is odd though how the GPS watch switches from the left wrist to the right wrist and then disappears (either given to someone off course or, as a couple photos may suggest, put down her top).

I suppose an explanation might be: she started with both watches on her left wrist, and then when that was uncomfortable she moved the GPS to her right wrist, and then when the battery died she took it off altogether. Who knows, and I'm not sure what the order of the pics is, but I don't think there is much information you can deduce from those pictures.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [highflyer] [ In reply to ]
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Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
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I think it had/has more to do with Lehigh Valley being a non-profit. Let's just say they get sued, how do you explain that to your Board of Directors? The marathon is not their main mission, it is simply a way to raise funds. My guess is Mr. Rossi's lawyer had a nice conversation with attorney's for the non-profit who told the RD to stay out of it.

NJSteve wrote:
alir wrote:
NJSteve wrote:


I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.


Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?

I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.


I guess I just think everyone (including RDs who earn a living off of this) should do what is right and not what is easy.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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JayPeeWhy wrote:
It should not be too difficult to look at this situation and eradicate further issues.

1. You are responsible for your chip and if you lose it then there is availability in T1 and T2 for a replacement (as with Ironman).
2. No chip, no result. And certainly no World Championship. How can you argue your way into first place at a World Championship? What other sport would allow that?
3. Timing mats .... no the RD can not save money by not having one at the turnaround. If you are USAT or TriBC / Canada or whatever affiliated and in any way beyond a local yokel type race ... raise the standards.
4. Complaint process should be in place and informative.


Agree completely. To this I would add that the burden of proof needs to be placed on the athlete to prove they ran the whole course. Under normal circumstances, this is done via the timing chip. When that fails for whatever reason (lost chip, malfunction, etc.), make it incumbent upon the athlete to prove they ran the course. I know this will leave out those individuals who do not race with/have a garmin, but under the rules "no chip = no time."
Last edited by: timbasile: Sep 2, 15 10:17
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
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I think it had/has more to do with Lehigh Valley being a non-profit. Let's just say they get sued, how do you explain that to your Board of Directors? The marathon is not their main mission, it is simply a way to raise funds. My guess is Mr. Rossi's lawyer had a nice conversation with attorney's for the non-profit who told the RD to stay out of it.

Yes - many races, even mid-sized to "big" ones, are run by a very lean operation behind the scenes. There is a mistaken belief that endurance sports events are massive money makers and even, "cash cows". I can assure you that they are not.

This IS a concern, for many races - the legal Lawyer fees alone could sink them, a ruling going against, them could be personally financially devastating.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Sep 2, 15 12:14
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.

I would submit that it would be 0 labor other than uploading the video, like a public record. Let the other competitors do the analysis if they're suspicious or curious. It would also put to bed a lot of wrongful accusations as well. "I think Bob cut the course...<watches video>... Oh there he is, never mind - I'm an idiot".

One of the obstacle races did that - it was a single video, 8 hrs long and you could jump to whatever time you want and see for yourself. If that was the turn around on a road race it would be great, and easier to setup than a timing mat. Also don't disregard the reduction in cheating if people know there are random cameras that other racers can look at later.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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I really like this idea, even putting aside the cheating deterrent.

It was nice to get the race video after doing my first Ironman in Whistler, but to have been able to see other videos and find myself through the course of the race would've been cool.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [jet black] [ In reply to ]
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jet black wrote:

This is a great long term solution, but it will take some time to implement. The immediate solution is to just DQ if you lose your chip or miss a timing mat, unless you can provide GPS proof you did the whole course.

Not defending her at all, but this falls right in line with court of public opinions saying of "Guilty until proven innocent", and I don't agree with it. I don't ever cheat with any intent myself, but I also don't use any GPS device when I race. I feel as though making sure each individual completes a course should be incurred by the race organization through chips, timing mats or the like. I shouldn't have to incur personal costs to do their job.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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Khyron wrote:
zoom wrote:
Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.


I would submit that it would be 0 labor other than uploading the video, like a public record. Let the other competitors do the analysis if they're suspicious or curious. It would also put to bed a lot of wrongful accusations as well. "I think Bob cut the course...<watches video>... Oh there he is, never mind - I'm an idiot".

One of the obstacle races did that - it was a single video, 8 hrs long and you could jump to whatever time you want and see for yourself. If that was the turn around on a road race it would be great, and easier to setup than a timing mat. Also don't disregard the reduction in cheating if people know there are random cameras that other racers can look at later.


And with GoPro having a relationship with WTC you would think they could just borrow some marketing samples.. I've suggested GoPro's out on the course before as it seems like a very easy answer to many of these issues. No Chip and not seen on the wide angle cameras... then you weren't there.

and maybe this was discussed before, but doesn't the fact that Julie as an identical twin (or nearly identical twin) allow for far more plausible answers to mismatched photos/clothing/bands, etc? (I'm sure this was somewhere in the thread, I just missed it.) My statement is based on this article in the Squamish Reporter from May 25, 2015 "Lisa and Julie have been indistinguishable-and inseparable-since they were born 40 years ago in Ontario."
http://www.squamishreporter.com/...-of-us/#.Vec17TZRGUk



______________________________________________
Team JFT, Seattle, WA
Last edited by: gregtay: Sep 2, 15 10:47
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gregtay] [ In reply to ]
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You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Khyron] [ In reply to ]
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Let's say I'm the time keeper/RD. You got flagged as cutting the course. I DQ you. You go and find the video link that I uploaded to tell me that, "if you look in the upper left hand corner of the video 1 and 3, you can see me run by." Well, someone has to go and dig up that video to analyze whether your statement is correct or not ... that's not 0 labor. Say I have 2 cameras out on the run course and 3 on the bike course at key turn points. That's potentially 2 videos that I have to upload and then analyze if you decide to protest your DQ. Now, if I want to be really thorough, I may want to do a sanity check on the other 3 videos to make sure that you were seen. Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

Then, there's the cost of hosting those video on a server somewhere for long periods of time. The cost may be minimal, but there is now a new cost that I have to worry about. Like I said, doable for WTC ... not so much for smaller races where they are already at the margins.

Khyron wrote:
zoom wrote:
Cameras are cheap, but the human resource to go through and analyze all of that isn't. Sportstats said that, at one race he did, there were 30+ people who were DQ due irregular splits. He also mentioned about how busy they are during and after the race. Imagine that they spend 1 hour, per athlete, reviewing and analyzing the the data. Then, you just say can't verbally that you saw strange things at x minutes. You have to write up your finding formally, if the athlete decide to protest. What if the athlete then say, "show me the video! " You would then have to spend time retrieving it and showing it to the athlete. That takes time and human resource also. By the time you are done, say only 5 athletes protested, you could be spending 3-4 hours per athlete gathering an documenting all the artifacts. Perhaps WTC can absorb the extra cost/manpower to analyze the pics, timestamps, etc. Those smaller races, where are they going to get the money from?

Khyron wrote:
Cameras are so cheap now, there's no reason a GoPro can't be set up with a volunteer at a turn around or any suspect point. Even at 5 fps or something. That's basically what happened with Rossi - there was a photographer on the bridge and with so many runners he basically took a video stream.


I would submit that it would be 0 labor other than uploading the video, like a public record. Let the other competitors do the analysis if they're suspicious or curious. It would also put to bed a lot of wrongful accusations as well. "I think Bob cut the course...<watches video>... Oh there he is, never mind - I'm an idiot".

One of the obstacle races did that - it was a single video, 8 hrs long and you could jump to whatever time you want and see for yourself. If that was the turn around on a road race it would be great, and easier to setup than a timing mat. Also don't disregard the reduction in cheating if people know there are random cameras that other racers can look at later.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

Got it, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. thx


______________________________________________
Team JFT, Seattle, WA
Last edited by: gregtay: Sep 2, 15 11:00
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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one thing i would like to know about weihai. i have heard that it was very challenging trying to get reliable split data, laps data. also, there are a lot of T2 times missing from the results.

my questions are:

1. was the only anomaly the lack of T2 splits?
2. was there a timing wire that was insensitive or avoided by athletes in their route in our out of T2, causing that T2 time to be lumped in with bike or run splits?
3. if so, do we know whether it was the in wire or out wire?
4. do we have a lot of good garmin or other data suggesting that the splits, notwithstanding the T2 problem, were good? or do we have good individual microelectronic data that casts doubt on the splits in the results?

what i'm asking in #4 above is whether anybody looked at his or her garmin, looked at his or her posted splits on the ITU website, and said, "good grief, while that was my final finish time they got my splits all wrong."

anybody who actually did weihai, i'd love a PM or email to me telling me your own personal FACT-BASED view of the questions above.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.
I might be mistaken, but I believe it was said that they DQ at least that many by just striking them from the results based on abnormalities, but seldom have a protest from one of the DQ'd athletes. Once it becomes known that cameras are being utilized on course, less cheating will go on. Yes, there will be some extra work, but a lot less of a headache for someone like Lehigh Valley Marathon if they had had video cameras or more timing mats for their 2014 race! With time stamped video and the ability to go to a specific time at a specific point during a race, it wouldn't take much time at all, if somebody that is DQ'd protests.

I still think this is a money making opportunity for somebody. I have the skills to do it, just not at a point financially/personally to take it on! Dropcams with cellular data connections uploading data at random "checkpoints". Large tethered helium balloons getting a birds eye view. I'm predicting timing loops/chips will be replaced with facial recognition and possibly OCR for bib numbers or QR codes on bib numbers. I can setup a camera a lot faster than a timing loop/mat!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
Let's say I'm the time keeper/RD. You got flagged as cutting the course. I DQ you. You go and find the video link that I uploaded to tell me that, "if you look in the upper left hand corner of the video 1 and 3, you can see me run by." Well, someone has to go and dig up that video to analyze whether your statement is correct or not ... that's not 0 labor. Say I have 2 cameras out on the run course and 3 on the bike course at key turn points. That's potentially 2 videos that I have to upload and then analyze if you decide to protest your DQ. Now, if I want to be really thorough, I may want to do a sanity check on the other 3 videos to make sure that you were seen. Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

Then, there's the cost of hosting those video on a server somewhere for long periods of time. The cost may be minimal, but there is now a new cost that I have to worry about. Like I said, doable for WTC ... not so much for smaller races where they are already at the margins.

Or the RD could get a couple of teenage volunteers to sit under an umbrella just prior to each turnaround, armed with two clipboards and a list of race numbers. Someone comes by with a visible race number, they get crossed off each list. Someone without a visible race number gets yelled prior to the turnaround at to produce the number (unfold it, yell it, whatever) when they come back after the turnaround. Next step up is to have each volunteer write down the numbers so you get an ordering. Next step would be to have each volunteer write down the number while someone else calls out the current race time, so you get a timestamp ordering.

Not every problem needs a high-tech, high-cost solution.

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:
Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

I still think this is a money making opportunity for somebody. I have the skills to do it, just not at a point financially/personally to take it on! Dropcams with cellular data connections uploading data at random "checkpoints". Large tethered helium balloons getting a birds eye view. I'm predicting timing loops/chips will be replaced with facial recognition and possibly OCR for bib numbers or QR codes on bib numbers. I can setup a camera a lot faster than a timing loop/mat!

And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [gregtay] [ In reply to ]
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gregtay wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

Got it, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. thx

I think the apprehension about bringing in her sister was that they didn't want others to be brought in without proof of culpability. The previous thread devolved into "OMG! She has a twin sister, they must be in cahoots!" without any reasonable analysis to suggest that her sister was even involved beyond the role of supporter. The key here, I believe, was conjecture without evidence.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.
I believe this is exactly what ST does not want in this thread.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
tonythetriguy wrote:
Quote:
Multiply this by 5-10 athletes, which Sportstats said was on the low side, and all of a sudden you are spending a lot of manpower.

I still think this is a money making opportunity for somebody. I have the skills to do it, just not at a point financially/personally to take it on! Dropcams with cellular data connections uploading data at random "checkpoints". Large tethered helium balloons getting a birds eye view. I'm predicting timing loops/chips will be replaced with facial recognition and possibly OCR for bib numbers or QR codes on bib numbers. I can setup a camera a lot faster than a timing loop/mat!


And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...

Pretty normal for triathletes to have a hardware solution to a software problem.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Ty] [ In reply to ]
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Ty wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

I believe this is exactly what ST does not want in this thread.
As I said...
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
gregtay wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
You should keep conjecture that her twin was in any way complicit off this thread.

Got it, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. thx


I think the apprehension about bringing in her sister was that they didn't want others to be brought in without proof of culpability. The previous thread devolved into "OMG! She has a twin sister, they must be in cahoots!" without any reasonable analysis to suggest that her sister was even involved beyond the role of supporter. The key here, I believe, was conjecture without evidence.

Got it, and I can understand that. I missed the other thread so I apologize for that.


______________________________________________
Team JFT, Seattle, WA
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
There is a mistaken belief that endurance sports events are massive money makes and even "cash cows". I can assure you that they are not.

Not EVERY race is operated by the Evil Rock & Roll Backwards Hosewater Slave Labor Marathon Empire

Death Rides A Pale Cow
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...

With conditions like that, over an extended period, would someone still be very concerned about winning their AG or KQ, when sheer survival is in question?

Actually, in a case like that, cutting the course my not be legal but possibly more prudent, just to get home as quickly as possible

I could be wrong

Death Rides A Pale Cow
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
klehner wrote:
And then a front comes through with 20-30mph winds and rain...


With conditions like that, over an extended period, would someone still be very concerned about winning their AG or KQ, when sheer survival is in question?

Actually, in a case like that, cutting the course my not be legal but possibly more prudent, just to get home as quickly as possible

I could be wrong

You're right. If, for no other reason, you don't want your chip falling off in the wind and rain.
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