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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [TriMyBest] [ In reply to ]
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hmm? Odd. I can't even get on to Evernote's website, so I guess it's a problem my end. I was able to access the links before.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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Just replying in general....

Had a look at her donate page; seems she volunteers to help kids who struggle with mental illness--we tend to help those who remind us of ourselves in some way.

I think this whole story is sad and feel badly for the lady, it appears she is struggling herself and has for some time.

It's my opinion that a lot of people struggle with various mental health issues and handle them in various ways. Drugs, alcohol, sex....or they cheat in races to make them feel better (for a small time).

It is my guess, and only my guess, that this person, deep down, is struggling.

I guess, my main point, is mental health is a huge problem that offers very little support for those struggling with it. When I say "little support" it's basically non existent. Even if you live in a strong community with good hospitals, and you have good insurance, it is a joke.

I'm not excusing her actions by any means, they are clearly wrong and she has got to pay the price. That said, we need to realize the root cause of these types of decisions, make it so it's not so taboo to talk about it, and set up systems so people can get appropriate medical care.

Until you or someone extremely close to you has felt debilitating depression, a long running manic episode, bipolar, or any other form of mental illness, try not to answer what you would do or not do under those circumstances.

Mike
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [alir] [ In reply to ]
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Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?
I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.
From my understanding of that situation, an official with the Boston Marathon had inferred that if Rossi were DQ'd from the qualifying race, they would consider DQing his result from Boston since he had qualified fraudulently, but they wouldn't do anything until then. Also, Rossi had supposedly used his LVM time to enter the Chicago marathon which has yet to happen… Regardless if there is a perceived benefit, DQ'ing Rossi would have been the right/just thing to do. Fortunately with Julie Miller, at least two races so far have stepped up and done the right thing!


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."


WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.

You learned from the best I see.

MOATS! MOATS! MOATS!!!

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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sharkbait_au wrote:
For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?

In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (DQ, but not sure if chip lost. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (lost chip (according to quoted comment from 2nd place finisher), ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)

I believe the above information is factual. Happy to be corrected.

Locals who say JM's course-cutting was a poorly kept secret may know of other 'not normal' performances.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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2014 Vancouver. Chip was not lost, however outbiked all pros - men and women - on 2 of 4 bike laps. And was witnessed twice cutting the run course.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the update. I think keeping this a factual thread and not questioning her mental health will allow Dan to keep the thread up and running.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
stevej wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


What is wrong with helmet mirrors? I race with it all the time. They are not illegal.


Are you sure about that?

I just looked at IMCHOO's athlete guide and....

" Helmet mirrors or mirrors attached to the bike or body are prohibited unless needed for a verifiable medical reason. Athletes granted permission to use a mirror will be ineligible for awards or World Championship entry slots. Athletes using a mirror without permission will be disqualified."


WTC yes, USAT in general, nope. I could not wear in worlds, and maybe not IMLT, but all other races I wear, as you can see in my race pictures.


You learned from the best I see.

MOATS! MOATS! MOATS!!!

Moats just won the 60-64 age group championship in the 70.3 Worlds last weekend. You'll have to check race pics to see if a mirror was present.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
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Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?
I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.

From my understanding of that situation, an official with the Boston Marathon had inferred that if Rossi were DQ'd from the qualifying race, they would consider DQing his result from Boston since he had qualified fraudulently, but they wouldn't do anything until then. Also, Rossi had supposedly used his LVM time to enter the Chicago marathon which has yet to happen… Regardless if there is a perceived benefit, DQ'ing Rossi would have been the right/just thing to do. Fortunately with Julie Miller, at least two races so far have stepped up and done the right thing!

But again, that wouldn't change anything - it looks like his goal was to run Boston. He ran Boston. Retro DQ's don't change that.

JM is a different case because retro DQs for her would mean that other people would then become AG champions, etc.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
sharkbait_au wrote:
For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?


In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (DQ, but not sure if chip lost. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (lost chip (according to quoted comment from 2nd place finisher), ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)

I believe the above information is factual. Happy to be corrected.

Locals who say JM's course-cutting was a poorly kept secret may know of other 'not normal' performances.

Huh. She seems to have a lot of bad luck with losing chips. We should cut her some slack.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [alir] [ In reply to ]
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But again, that wouldn't change anything - it looks like his goal was to run Boston. He ran Boston. Retro DQ's don't change that.
JM is a different case because retro DQs for her would mean that other people would then become AG champions, etc.
So should Julie be DQ'd from the 2013 IMC if she cheated in it? She placed 10th in her AG in that race… I would guess the 11th place finisher would like the DQ to happen. She's been DQ'd from the 2014 Vancouver Half that she used to qualify for a race that she's already done, why DQ her from that race? You would say so somebody else can become an AG Champion. I agree she should be DQ'd from that race (as she was), but not just because she was the AG Champion, she cheated, she deserves the DQ. Are they going to send the new AG champion a trophy and hold a delayed awards ceremony? And that paycheck for winning that AG, oh, wait, there isn't one... Rossi finished 5th in his AG, do you think the value of moving from 6th to 5th is inconsequential? Or how about this, when it is clear someone cheated in an event, they are DQ'd, period! Or, would you prefer to be the one who assigns value to placement and arbitrarily decide who should be DQ'd and who shouldn't?


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
sharkbait_au wrote:
For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?


In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (DQ, but not sure if chip lost. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (lost chip (according to quoted comment from 2nd place finisher), ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)

I believe the above information is factual. Happy to be corrected.

Locals who say JM's course-cutting was a poorly kept secret may know of other 'not normal' performances.

2014 Long Course Worlds was apparently . Chip 'Issue' not a lost chip.

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [ In reply to ]
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to all:

a few of the comments in the last several posts are taking this thread off its original intended course (at least, my intended course when i replaced a previous thread with this one. accordingly, this thread would serve its purpose if:

1. we didn't heap scorn on top of scorn (i think we know how you feel without you writing what others have already written);
2. we keep from being amateur diagnosticians;
4. we keep to the facts. (unnamed "locals" are not expert witnesses. "not normal" is not a standard or proof for performances.)

this thread is for your continued discussion, comparing notes, offering actual sussed-out proof and new facts if you so choose. maybe a theoretical discussion of what our sport might want to do to formalize its response to certain in-race behaviors: losing chips, not following the prescribed course. are the current rules enough? (rules the allow for stiffer sanctions in the case of "repeat violations.") or do we need further rules?



Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [JayPeeWhy] [ In reply to ]
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So from a few posts from above, I gather the information we have is ...

In chronological order:

2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)
2014 Test of Metal MTB race (lost race number on front of bike, cut 25 mins off prior year's time)
2014 Vancouver Long Distance Triathlon (chip issue, DQ. Think the issue was out-biking pro men on 2 laps)
2014 ITU Long Distance Worlds (chip issue, ran 6:43/mile for 20km off a 4+ hour bike. Not normal.)
2015 IMC (lost chip, DQ)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i looked hard at those WC results and unless i'm wrong victoria had the fastest female AG run of the day, all AGs. and she was 6min down on julie's run. i am very suspicious of this run. it makes no sense in the context of all her other results.

this, you may talk about. i hope you will talk about it. i hope the truth is found out about this WC race. this run split does not comport with all the rest of her results. further, her superhuman results are either in the bike, but not the run, or they're on the run, but not the bike. i have been in the sport since the beginning. i've seen it all. i've seen the entire arc of the sport. nobody ever has exhibited that kind of performance behavior while racing.

consequently, this deserves an explanation. i would like that china WC race thoroughly vetted, such results discussed right here. i hope you don't think i want to quash that discussion.

Dan, when I used the term "not normal" I did so in a similar context as you did above. I was pointing out that a 6:43/mile pace for 20km after a 4 hour bike was inconsistent with some of her stand alone (1:40-ish) half marathons. So I'm not sure why we can't say "not normal," but we can say "makes no sense in the context of all her other results". They seem, de facto, the same.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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perhaps i misunderstood. i had construed the "not normal" standard to be applied to various races not so far mentioned. if you're talking about the very fast run split at worlds, yes, this would be a run that might be construed by reasonable people out of character when applied against the standard of other performances

whether this person or other people, it has always been the moderating habit here to avoid the nebulous accusation.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the reminder, cheating gets me riled up, I'm considering law school in the future…

There is a discussion about Ms Miller on the FB group, "Ironman Canada": https://www.facebook.com/...4652684/?pnref=story where a "Sheena Harris" who competed in the 2013 IMC had this to say:
Quote:
2013 Ironman Canada Whistler (we both raced that year) I saw what I believe was Julie Miller cutting the run course. I was not surprised to find out after the fact she had no split time. (timing chip issues) I had no concrete evidence and it has bothered me since.
This year 2015 I had the opportunity to watch Miller race, I was on a corner for a duration of time where I would see Miller four times. I saw her once. She was given a 1st place spot to Kona with no T2 and no split time. This alarmed me and I was vocal about it because in the tri world NO CHIP = NO TIME. Miller told a hurtful story that I was a 'mean girl' spreading ugly rumours about her. As you can all imagine it was a very uncomfortable situation to be as I was attacked by her for stating what I saw.

My guess would be there are eye witnesses to many cheating/cheaters who don't come forward. Those that do get attacked as poor sports or their concerns are minimized.


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
maybe a theoretical discussion of what our sport might want to do to formalize its response to certain in-race behaviors


I would like to see 'a response'. As far as I am aware TriBC is a product if it's membership. When a complaint is made some form of communication should be instigated (which I did receive - both email and a telephone call) BUT then some form of ongoing dialogue should be ensured. What is happening? What has happened? Is the investigation ongoing or closed? What was the outcome? Was ITU informed? What are they doing about it?

(EDIT - TriBC recently submitted a newsletter intimating that the situation was being investigated, which is great.)

The same should apply to Triathlon Canada, British Triathlon and ITU. With something that important it seems a 'zero communication' policy is both detrimental to the members who think they just don't care and to the athlete in question who, instead of receiving a formal investigation and outcome from people (who have, know and understand the facts) is left open to ongoing social media scrutiny - where the punishment likely outweighs the crime

I don't feel the associations have protected athletes on either side of the fence. Either initially at the races, where the bulk of this course cutting nonsense should have not been allowed to happen and if it did then immediately stamped out. Or afterwards in the slow death by stoning of social media. Literally everyone is pissed off .... law abiding athletes, Miller, friends and colleagues of Miller. The people who i have spoken to who know Miller are both shocked at the data when explained and equally surprised that someone could do it in the first place and that there is nothing in place that could pick it up afterwards.

It should not be too difficult to look at this situation and eradicate further issues.

1. You are responsible for your chip and if you lose it then there is availability in T1 and T2 for a replacement (as with Ironman).
2. No chip, no result. And certainly no World Championship. How can you argue your way into first place at a World Championship? What other sport would allow that?
3. Timing mats .... no the RD can not save money by not having one at the turnaround. If you are USAT or TriBC / Canada or whatever affiliated and in any way beyond a local yokel type race ... raise the standards.
4. Complaint process should be in place and informative.

As I mentioned previously .. some organsiations make money from their reputation, they all dealt with this matter reasonably quickly, with seriousness and communication - Ossenbrink, Ironman, Sportstats - the people that should have dictated the outcome seem either not to have been at the party or ignored the member(s) lodging the complaint.

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Last edited by: JayPeeWhy: Sep 2, 15 13:38
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, agreed - as you can see, I first used the term "not normal" with reference to the 2014 ITU Worlds performance. I was not suggesting any 'locals' should come here with conjecture, but rather they might reference other official race results which may be inconsistent with her normal results.

Per the ITU Worlds run, I wonder what the "issue" with the chip was? If it failed to pick up any run lap or run turn-around point splits, but there was a finish time, does this make it harder for the ITU to DQ her? In other words, if there were one or two unusual lap times (like the Vancouver bike laps), then I assume they would have DQ'd her already, so presumably there were no run lap splits at all. It would be interesting to know exactly what the 'issue' with her chip was at that race. If any of the other podium finishers who were there are reading this and willing to offer their knowledge, that would be helpful.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
hmm? Odd. I can't even get on to Evernote's website, so I guess it's a problem my end. I was able to access the links before.
I also made sure they mirrored onto archive.org, so you can access them there if they happen to go offline. Call me paranoid.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
to all:

a few of the comments in the last several posts are taking this thread off its original intended course (at least, my intended course when i replaced a previous thread with this one. accordingly, this thread would serve its purpose if:

1. we didn't heap scorn on top of scorn (i think we know how you feel without you writing what others have already written);
2. we keep from being amateur diagnosticians;
4. we keep to the facts. (unnamed "locals" are not expert witnesses. "not normal" is not a standard or proof for performances.)

this thread is for your continued discussion, comparing notes, offering actual sussed-out proof and new facts if you so choose. maybe a theoretical discussion of what our sport might want to do to formalize its response to certain in-race behaviors: losing chips, not following the prescribed course. are the current rules enough? (rules the allow for stiffer sanctions in the case of "repeat violations.") or do we need further rules?

I don't believe that the current rules are enough. I think in the case of verifiable, blatant cheating, then bans similar to doping should be enforced. A single DQ doesn't seem to have much deterrent effect, it would seem. I have made inquiries with both USAT and WTC about the process for requesting a rules change for just this purpose.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [sharkbait_au] [ In reply to ]
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"2013 IMC (lost chip, swam 58 mins, ran 3:42 marathon, both of which seem inconsistent with other swims/runs)"

I'd also like to point out that when she lost her chip she also 'lost' a watch.. perhaps a GPS watch?

In one of the photos on FinisherPix you can see what appears to be her timing chip and a watch on both wrists and then in other photos the chip is gone and the watch is also gone.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
My guess would be there are eye witnesses to many cheating/cheaters who don't come forward. Those that do get attacked as poor sports or their concerns are minimized.

This seems to be something that we need to change. Right now many RD's, and apparently governing bodies, act as if the person who reports potential cheating is the person in the wrong. And often when someone notices something is off in person there is also some sort of oddity in the splits or timing. That should raise some red flags and cause further investigation but usually it does not (except for WTC races now timed by Sportsstats).

Cheating doesn't happen often but we know it does. RD's and governing bodies need to be open to a system where a complaint can be raised and results investigated. I get that no one wants to have that uncomfortable confrontation, but that is part of their role. If you don't want to have accurate results don't have timing. Then we can just be a mud run and not a race.

We are so fucked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
tonythetriguy wrote:

My guess would be there are eye witnesses to many cheating/cheaters who don't come forward. Those that do get attacked as poor sports or their concerns are minimized.


This seems to be something that we need to change. Right now many RD's, and apparently governing bodies, act as if the person who reports potential cheating is the person in the wrong. And often when someone notices something is off in person there is also some sort of oddity in the splits or timing. That should raise some red flags and cause further investigation but usually it does not (except for WTC races now timed by Sportsstats).

Cheating doesn't happen often but we know it does. RD's and governing bodies need to be open to a system where a complaint can be raised and results investigated. I get that no one wants to have that uncomfortable confrontation, but that is part of their role. If you don't want to have accurate results don't have timing. Then we can just be a mud run and not a race.

x2. Yes. This. USAT/WTC need to include a formal complaint procedure in their rules clearly spelled out, included in athlete guide for races, etc.



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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Daynalee] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is also fascinating that the athlete appears to have lost the Blue IM Wrist Band for sections of the run course. In some photos she is wearing a Garmin GPS watch and you'll notice no signs of the wrist band. It could be covered by the second watch, but it does look like it is missing.
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