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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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I always wait and look for your posts to H2O - and you never fail me! Amazing you always find them! How?
Last edited by: chrisinma: Sep 1, 15 18:07
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
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livestrongscott wrote:
Dan,

I feel that you have been very fair and balanced in both your comments and governing a frustrated crowd. I ask a simple question and am interested in your thoughts. If Ms. Miller was disqualified from a qualifying event then aren't her results in China automatically null. i.e. If I were the NY Yankees and made it to the World Series and Won.....Then it was determined I was disqualified from the event which put me into the world series....It would seem I couldn't win the world series if I was disqualified in the round before I got there. Before or after the result. Thoughts? Mostly trying to understand how all these different organizations rule in these circumstances. I defer to your extensive knowledge over my limited knowledge.

Good point.

I know with Mark Robson (Australian cheat) he qualified for 70.3 worlds in Texas and Kona plus ITU events and was later DQ'd for cheating at the qualifying races - Busselton 70.3. But he was never DQ'd from the worlds. Neither of them had legitimately qualified for these events, so I'm sure there must be something in the rulebook that states in order to race this event you must meet certain criteria, one of which is gaining a certain time at a qualifying event.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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tonythetriguy wrote:
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The sports governing body in Canada should or will deal with her. Race directors will be wary of her and WTC will likely ban her.

When those things happen, I will agree with you. But according to previous posters, a complaint was filed by the British Tri Fed with ITU, where has that gone? Hopefully something is happening behind the scenes with that complaint, but I have very little faith in the powers that be to retroactively DQ someone. And what about all the sponsors and people who contributed to her travels/racing?
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what is essentially cheating to get a participation medal in a niche sport

She did a lot more than this! Google her and you will find all kinds of pages out there where she is calling herself a world champion. If this here is what a participation medal looks like, sign me up for one: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/...us&client=safari


Re: that link: she had to throw in the whole "inferior gender" card as well. WTF???? I'm female and during my entire teen/adult life have worked in a male dominated profession. My accolades (and shortcomings) have been a product of my work; not my sex. I don't think that, outside some isolated circumstance (where the guy was probably a misogynist) I've routinely felt like I was part of an inferior gender. In triathlon, I think that the "outcomes" (in this case; Kona slots) are very gender-blind and probably favor the female athletes. IMO, not only does JM come across as a sociopath; but also as a female with a huge chip on her shoulder.

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com
Last edited by: Honey: Sep 1, 15 18:37
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Newts] [ In reply to ]
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Newts wrote:


As an eye-witness, the woo-ha this girl created at the finish line to get her podium was incredible, applying pressure on the organisers, I think there was mention of a faulty timing chip or something - they folded. The British contingent didn't contest too much at the time as you expect and rely on the integrity in your competitors and it was only looking back at the results (which were released much later in the day) that it was evident that something didn't stack up.

Disgraceful behaviour.


After hearing things like that about her, I'm less inclined to think she has a mentally illness, more of a case she's just a nasty, narcissistic, self-obsessed individual.
Last edited by: zedzded: Sep 1, 15 18:57
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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She was also an, "Air Canada Charity Recipient." I wonder if they know they were duped?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I for one was caught in this net as a false positive in a 70.3 race which I did a few years back in central america. I won my AG but was DQed based on a non-sensical timing split. What confused the matter was that the run course was actually 1/2 mile short due to construction and my run time was fast relative to my pace. Since I did not run 13.1 miles according to my Garmin it "proof" I was guilty as charged and could not convince anyone otherwise.

It was not until I got home, able to upload my Garmin showing I ran the course (and it was short) and sent this to the RD that I was able to get my race result reinstated. Never did get that trophy... and I don't win my AG that often.

Comment - timing systems are not fool-proof and courses are not always accurate. The race official seemed quite happy to have caught me cheating and would not even listen to my (valid) arguments.


Slowman wrote:
i saw that you wrote this. a couple of things come to mind:

1. this probably wasn't installed, or the scope of the software beyond, what happened at the subaru vancouver half.
2. i would very much like to pursue the 5-10 people statement. that is per race? and how often is this a false positive for cheating? in other words, how many times is it determined out of these 5-10 that somebody crossed the finish, doing too few laps or in some way not the prescribed course, and claiming the result as valid?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [joggernut] [ In reply to ]
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What was the "non-sensical" timing split? Did you lose your chip? Did you miss a timing mat? Did you out run the Pro Field? What was the anomaly that led to the initial DQ when you finished?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
What was the "non-sensical" timing split? Did you lose your chip? Did you miss a timing mat? Did you out run the Pro Field? What was the anomaly that led to the initial DQ when you finished?

From what I was told one split indicated that I ran from point A to point B at a 5 min/mile pace. I was not given the pleasure of viewing all the data to see why that error occurred or to check their math, but something clearly did not add up. Oddly, when I went back to the hotel and checked the athlete tracker, the online results looked perfectly normal. I attribute it a glitch in their software, don't know how the timing data they analyze relates to the online tracking results.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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Honey wrote:
... but also as a female with a huge chip on her shoulder.

There you go, the chip was on the shoulder. Mistery solved.



Only fools never change their minds and I'll never change my mind about that.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [joggernut] [ In reply to ]
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Bizarre. Either way, you had a chip time and GPS data to support it. In my mind, your situation is easily spoken to if the result is contested. A situation where a chip is lost AND you have no GPS data is a DQ for me, no questions asked.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
Bizarre. Either way, you had a chip time and GPS data to support it. In my mind, your situation is easily spoken to if the result is contested. A situation where a chip is lost AND you have no GPS data is a DQ for me, no questions asked.

Yeah, but in this case I did not get to stand on the podium and someone else went home with my 1st place trophy. My only fault was not having access to a laptop to upload my data - perhaps WTC timing officials should have this available for people to contest the results with their own data.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Bancarel] [ In reply to ]
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Bancarel wrote:
Honey wrote:
... but also as a female with a huge chip on her shoulder.


There you go, the chip was on the shoulder. Mistery solved.

I enjoyed this.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Laughed out loud too!

CJ
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
lovegoat wrote:
Runout wrote:
+1 The baby was thrown out with the bathwater when the thread disappeared. I would prefer to see it displayed and locked following deleting that which is unacceptable.


+2

Would welcome removal (moderation?:)) of the mob amusemt from posts 250 and out, but the discussion before that was fine, imo.

Also - slowman mentioned something about the coaches post as reason to hide the thread. If the thread stays hidden I'd like to hear a bit more detail on why the coach's post should get buried (I'd get it if there was suspicion that it was not the actual coach coming forward though..)


Quite honestly I still don't quite understand how her coach didn't pick up on any red flags. I have been coached, and my spouse is a couch. Unless you have so many athletes you're coaching that you are not able to dedicate the time and effort to analyzing any of their training and race results, then I don't see how some of JM's performances could go without suspicion. I understand that she didn't post training files, but still... Some of her performances involved out-biking or out-running many of the pro men and women. How does that pass even the mildest sniff test? Further, these were performances at high profile races, not local sprints, where one would expect a higher level of post-race analysis.

I can give the coach the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely didn't pick up on any of the anomalies, but that, to me, suggests he didn't spend much time discussing her racing goals or looking at her performances and discussing them with her afterwards. Maybe it was a combination of them: some suspicions existed, but we're not followed up on, and JM was just one of a very many athletes being coached?

I agree and am astounded by this - maybe she can ask the coach for a refund to fund her attorney fee's
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Along with pictures so people recognize her.

Let as many people as possible know about her behavior.
If it is attention and admiration she craves as motivation for cheating, publicly exposing her behavior is probably the best deterrent of her racing any time soon - or trying to cheat again.

That being said, I have met a few rare psych cases that despite being caught, DQ repeatedly from races, banned, and in one case followed on bike by the RD - still tried to cheat.
Yet another assumed the identify of a family friend and raced under their name. Even claiming to be sponsored by Adidas.

It's a compulsion or addiction.

Personally I vote for banning her from any competitive sport. Not just triathlons. If she is willing to cheat at tris she will probably cheat at whatever she takes up next.


"There may be men that can beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it." Steve Prefontane
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [powerbarjunkie] [ In reply to ]
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powerbarjunkie wrote:
I agree. Along with pictures so people recognize her.

Let as many people as possible know about her behavior.
If it is attention and admiration she craves as motivation for cheating, publicly exposing her behavior is probably the best deterrent of her racing any time soon - or trying to cheat again.

That being said, I have met a few rare psych cases that despite being caught, DQ repeatedly from races, banned, and in one case followed on bike by the RD - still tried to cheat.
Yet another assumed the identify of a family friend and raced under their name. Even claiming to be sponsored by Adidas.

It's a compulsion or addiction.

Personally I vote for banning her from any competitive sport. Not just triathlons. If she is willing to cheat at tris she will probably cheat at whatever she takes up next.

What irks me is her lack of contriteness and her unwillingness to issue an apology. When she was busted, she had an "out", of sorts. Generally people are pretty forgiving, to a point. She could have confessed straight away, admitted she cheated, come up with some cock n bull story about how some kids at school stole her lunch money and called her names and now she's depressed so had to cheat yadda yadda yadda - we would have accepted it and forgiven her and that would have been the end of the matter. But refusing to admit she has cheated and lawyering up has not only angered people further, but ensured Juliegate is not going to go away any time soon.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [OkotoksLawyer] [ In reply to ]
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her aeroplan fundraising page says that racing worlds was going to cost her over $7000. that figure seems high, to me. . .

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [livestrongscott] [ In reply to ]
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livestrongscott wrote:
Dan,

I feel that you have been very fair and balanced in both your comments and governing a frustrated crowd. I ask a simple question and am interested in your thoughts. If Ms. Miller was disqualified from a qualifying event then aren't her results in China automatically null. i.e. If I were the NY Yankees and made it to the World Series and Won.....Then it was determined I was disqualified from the event which put me into the world series....It would seem I couldn't win the world series if I was disqualified in the round before I got there. Before or after the result. Thoughts? Mostly trying to understand how all these different organizations rule in these circumstances. I defer to your extensive knowledge over my limited knowledge.

Someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong, but as I understand it ITU Worlds are different from WTC worlds (and the World Series for that matter) in that technically you don't "qualify" for ITU Worlds, you are nominated to take part by your Federation - most Federations use some sort of qualification process rather than just, say, picking names out of a hat, but that process is solely part of the Federation and is not an official part of the ITU Worlds, so I doubt that ITU would have any grounds under their laws to nullify the result of an athlete that a Federation later says shouldn't have been there.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [NJSteve] [ In reply to ]
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NJSteve wrote:

I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.

Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?

I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
her aeroplan fundraising page says that racing worlds was going to cost her over $7000. that figure seems high, to me. . .

-mike

Well, 1 first class ticket, staying at a fancy hotel, checking the course to know where to cut it, and testing the strategy. And then a few weeks later, the actual trip to the race.
It's expensive, man.

-------------------------------------------

http://www.fmcoaching.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Well it worked for Mike Rossi.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
JayPeeWhy wrote:
So far we have had a DQ from Ironman Canada in 2015 and a stripping of results from the Vancouver Half Iron in 2014

There has been a lot of speculation regarding the performance of Julie Miller at the ITU Long Course World Championship in China in 2014.

A run that decimated all in her age group - 1hr 23m 43s (some 6 minutes faster than anyone else in her AG over just 20km) and a run that decimated most of the pro / elite female field (she had the 4th Fastest Female time compared to all Elite/ Pro Women - beating Andrea Hewett (NZ) and Laura Bennett (USA)

The lady who came 2nd in the 40-44 Age Group, thereby losing the right to call herself a World Champion, is Victoria Hill who was representing Great Britain. Victoria is a super consistent athlete and a great runner. Following the recent DQ's and after a year of uncertainly she has decided to come forward with her version of events at that World Championship race.

Here's what she had to say:

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At the time in Weihai, the result was always a mystery. Julie had clearly crossed the line in front of me..... I only clocked [saw] her on our last lap. I knew I was catching her, there was no way she is a faster runner than me. At the finish, the results said I had won which of course she challenged. She had crossed the line in front of me so I accepted I had come 2nd. The results were a debacle, it took ages for them to do our awards ceremony and then it transpired that her chip had been lost/something went wrong with it. I had no reason to think otherwise.

When the results finally came out on the website, it showed that she had come off the bike after me and then ran a faster time than me. I always knew this was wrong as I know for a fact no girl past me on the run. As this part is my strength, I normally do the passing on the run so would be well aware of another female passing me. The results only got published on line the next day and I never challenged it. In hindsight, of course I should have done but I just assumed she had come off the bike well in front of me and that I could not quite get her on the run. It was a 3 lap bike and a 4 lap run so somewhere she obviously ....


The third placed girl is also in contact with Victoria and they are looking to pursue the matter with ITU.

.


I think the discussion needs to be turned more towards this (and no the credibility of JayPeeWhy, ref last 2 pages of this new thread). Thanks for posting the above. I also posted in the previous IMC-thread regarding JM's run in Weihai. 1:23 for 20K - running only slightly slower than most ELITE men - Craig Alexander had the by far fastest split that day with 1:09. This seems highly unlikley - as backed up by the post from JayPeeWhy above.

Just out of curiosity I found a map of what seems to be the 2014 Weihei Run-course. A 4-loop 5k: http://www.triathlon.org/...ts/LD_run_course.jpg

For me the run-split is evidence enough - pretty much in line with the bike-splits of lap 3+4 in Vancouver Half 2014. It is more than hard to believe that JM could run 1:23 for 20k on the back of a 4 hrs bike@just under 30 km/h. I am all for keeping the faith that I one day may truly perform to my potential and bust out a huge PR for a run-split in IM/HIM, but I think that this is just not realistic at the very pointy end of the field.

Sure: if your previous PR was - for instance - 1:30 for a HIM run split - achieving a 2min PR is actually quite a bit of an improvement. Going 5-6 sec faster every K may not sound that incredible, but IMO the difference of 4:15/k and 4:10k is pretty noticable.. Still - this is well within the realm of possibility. What is not within the realm of possibility is - as far as I'm concerned - going from a 4:45/pace to 4-4:15min/K for a HIM-run split. This just does not happen over night, no matter how good a day you had. One thing is going from 6:30min/K to 5:45 min/K - which in itself would be a huge improvement. However, gains will be more easily obtained the slower your starting-speed was. When approaching speeds at 4min/k and below for a HIM-split you are so close to the really pointy end of your own potential, I just dont believe it can happen from one month to another. I should note that I dont have any good grounds to establish JMs normal running ability (partly becaue all of her results are now being questioned), but for example se ran:

- 1:39 in Vancouver half where it seems she cut the bike. This is approx 4:40min/k.

- 3:01 for 2015 ITU Long Dist (30k run) - this is approx 6:00/k - allthough on the back of a longer bike than your normal HIM.

Based of this alone she would have to cook up one heck of an explanation for me to believe she ran 4:10/k on the back of a 120k bike in Weihai..

Sure - course-profiles would also affect this picture, but the unlikleyness of her run split in ITU 2014 is supported by comparing her run split to other racers in the various events - she chrushed it compered to everyone else in Weihai. Not so much the other events. Also - the run course in Weihai - where she has by far her fastes run-pace - seems to be quite hilly: http://www.triathlon.org/...un_Profile_Graph.jpg


JayPeeWhy's evernote links appear to no longer be working. [ETA: seems to be my problem. Ignore.]

But this earlier post summarises well what happened at the ITU Long Course Worlds in Weihai, China. I can't imagine how frustrating it must have been for Victoria Hill to have made that long trip to the Worlds only to be cheated out of her first place. JM allegedly ran a 6:43/mile pace off a 4+ hour bike. The run course was 4 laps of a 5km loop, each of which included 2 out and back sections. I assume there was a timing mat at each of these 2 turn-around points, but low and behold, there were some issues with JM's chip.
Last edited by: Kay Serrar: Sep 2, 15 5:32
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [alir] [ In reply to ]
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alir wrote:
NJSteve wrote:


I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.


Something I've never understood about the Rossi thing is why everyone is so keen to have the Lehigh Valley result DQ'd. Surely it's irrelevant? If it had all come out before Boston, then getting him officially DQ'd would have meant that he couldn't run Boston. But it all came out after he had run Boston, so where is the pay off?

I don't blame Lehigh Valley for not wanting to get involved given that there was nothing to gain (for anyone) except the lawyers.

I guess I just think everyone (including RDs who earn a living off of this) should do what is right and not what is easy.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [twimc] [ In reply to ]
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For those of you doing the JM dissertation :). Is there a current number for results where timing chips have been suspect/abnormal/lost etc?
Last edited by: sharkbait_au: Sep 2, 15 5:24
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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They work fine for me.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
http://steelcityendurance.com/
http://www.reachmultisport.com/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, TRX Qualified (Standard & Sports Medicine)
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