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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [themuse1] [ In reply to ]
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themuse1 wrote:
Hi NJSteve,

I believe Sylvan uses MyLaps active chips. This means that there is a battery in the chip that emanates a signal to the RFID reader. This is called active RFID. Most timing companies use passive RFID, which means that the RFID reader looks for chips to come into the electrical field and register. The active system is very near 100% capture of data. I would be surprised if they miss one time stamp in all of the segments of a triathlon. Where the active and passive systems really differentiate is the swim data capture. I believe all passive timing systems have some degree of difficulty making that swim read, due to water on the chip. With active systems, the problem of water on the chip is eliminated, as the battery is emanating a signal.

Passive systems generally read well over 99%, often above 99.8%.

For this and many other reasons, Sportstat is the top timing company in the world.

Thanks!

Mark
You know, I haven't seen evidence of anyone doing this, but RFID cloning isn't completely out of reach, either. Locksmiths clone RFID units in car keys. If you had that sort of thing (multiple identical racing chips), a friend could hit a touchpad for you at the far end of the course and, short of photo evidence, you'd have a "clean" time result.

Just another reason to have multiple means of verification and not rely on a single technology.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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Jim Martin wrote:
jet black wrote:
This is the solution. .


I propose a different solution, and since WTC/USAT/sylvan and other may be reading, maybe something will come of this.

Apparently, the pros now race with the little box that tracks them all day, would it be that hard to tell racers at check in: welcome, if you want to race for a Kona slot, you need to pay an extra $20 to carry around this little box to track you all day. As an added bonus, you get to start in the KQ Mass Start. That way all you guys that are racing for the KQ will know where you stand when you pass one another on course. In addition, your chip strap is a different color than the non wave start people. So there, everyone that is racing to "complete" can have their race and do the rolling start and not sweat if they are getting passed or not, everyone else that is trying to get the KQ will know exactly where they stand when someone with a red chip strap passes them and if any results are ever in question, just go to the fancy little tracking device.

I would pay more for this service and to know that I was in a race and not a quasi time trial where I may get nicked at the line by a guy that was 20 minutes in front or behind me that I literally never saw on race day.

I love everything about your solution! The mass start, the different color straps to know who is racing and who isn't, and it would be great if the tracker would update a website that our family and friends could track us on. I would pay extra for that too. Heck, I've bought the myathletelive box 3 times just for the tracker.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [SasquatchRuns] [ In reply to ]
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SasquatchRuns wrote:
If the rules around having a chip are not enforced, then the timing mat placement means very little.

I agree that WTC does a great job with the mat placement, but any situation where an athlete is able to contest their way to a position with no timing data to support it needs to stop. The policy should be black and white when it comes to this. In almost any race, you can pick up a back up chip in transition if you lost it on the bike or swim. The notion that you lose it while running is pretty far fetched. Although possible, I would say it is incumbent on the participant to be aware enough to keep the chip in their possession for at minimum the run course and through the finish.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I think that the no chip=no time rule should be strictly enforced, and blatant cheaters should face suspensions and bans similar to doping. For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
SasquatchRuns wrote:
If the rules around having a chip are not enforced, then the timing mat placement means very little.

I agree that WTC does a great job with the mat placement, but any situation where an athlete is able to contest their way to a position with no timing data to support it needs to stop. The policy should be black and white when it comes to this. In almost any race, you can pick up a back up chip in transition if you lost it on the bike or swim. The notion that you lose it while running is pretty far fetched. Although possible, I would say it is incumbent on the participant to be aware enough to keep the chip in their possession for at minimum the run course and through the finish.


I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I think that the no chip=no time rule should be strictly enforced, and blatant cheaters should face suspensions and bans similar to doping. For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.

Spot

I always thought, with doping, you still have to put in some sort of training. Course-cutting, you just go ahead and do it.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spot] [ In reply to ]
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spot wrote:
For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.

Spot

I thought about this a bunch because in MY subconscious, it is worse than doping . The only thing I can come up (and it doesn't make much sense) is that at least the dopers are doing the actual race, sure they cheat, but they are cheating to improve fitness (illegally) so that they can cover the proscribed distances faster than anyone else. That is to say, they are still actually racing to run swim/bike/run faster than anyone else out there.

Someone that cuts the course intentionally doesn't even honor the sport or the event enough to actually perform the minimum requirement (2.4/112/26.2). They are even cheating the cheaters.

Doping is wrong, but it doesn't alleviate you of the necessity to train and work and risk injury and suffer. It just makes you faster for doing all that stuff. If you are going to cheat in the course cutting fashion, imagine how much easier training would be. No need to worry about dropping that 5 extra pounds, I am only going to run 15 miles instead of 26 on race day. No need to wake up at 4:00am to get that long trainer session in, I am only going to ride 90 miles on race day when everyone else rides 112. Everyone else is doing that work to get that fitness, the cutter doesn't need to do the work or get the fitness, they are only getting the results.

To me, the dopers are cheating by sacrificing their health for results and robbing people that refuse to make that poor decision. People that course cut aren't sacrificing anything to go faster, they are just screwing everyone that actually covers the prescribed distance.

Like I said, it doesn't really make much sense when written out, but subconsciously that's how it shakes out for me.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [walie] [ In reply to ]
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walie wrote:
spot wrote:
For some reason, I find cheating like this even more unpalatable than doping, although I can't really say why.


I always thought, with doping, you still have to put in some sort of training. Course-cutting, you just go ahead and do it.

I'd say that this individual did "put in some sort of training" - not enough to garner the results she wanted, obviously, but she isn't untrained.

I'd opine that course cutting rankles our ire because it happens "as we race" whereas doping occurs behind the scenes, before you step on course. The doper has at least "completed" the Ironman, whereas the course cutter is claiming something that they didn't do.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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While I fully agree that cutting the course is pathetic...

I find this more disturbing:

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Since news of the disqualification, Miller said she has received “anonymous threatening emails and phone calls to my house.”

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
While I fully agree that cutting the course is pathetic...

I find this more disturbing:

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Since news of the disqualification, Miller said she has received “anonymous threatening emails and phone calls to my house.”

Because someone would call & email her threats, or because she would claim that someone did? ;-)

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
http://steelcityendurance.com/
http://www.reachmultisport.com/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, TRX Qualified (Standard & Sports Medicine)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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I find this more disturbing:
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Since news of the disqualification, Miller said she has received “anonymous threatening emails and phone calls to my house.”
I have a very hard time believing anything Ms Miller claims. This quote from her friend
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but I will always stand up for bullying and cyber terrorizing of others. - http://www.kristaguloien.net/...77dc0cf24e84f75b03ef
is funny, not just because I'm sure she meant against, not for, but because she calls it cyber terrorizing! Now I'm sure it is terrifying to Julie that her cheating has been uncovered, but to claim cyber bullying and terrorizing, I'm not buying it. Mike Rossi claimed the same thing and used it as an excuse to pull all social media. I guess there is a chance some wacko has sent threatening messages, but like her results, she needs to show proof for people to take her seriously ever again...


Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [tonythetriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Even if she showed something you still wouldn't believe it as it's anonymous.

I am not saying that she's definitely telling the truth but I don't find it hard to believe that some idiots would do this.

And if true, I am disturbed by it.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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it just occurred to me that she's probably (definitely) reading this thread
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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And so is her lawyer ;)
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [spankybc] [ In reply to ]
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not sure why it never crossed my mind - then i googled her name and a word that rhymes with 'meat' and slowtwitch threads came up.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Can you explain why you are having to fork out money for legal representation? I'm generally curious as I guess I don't understand the law. Is she claiming defamation?

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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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attorneys typically counsel silence from their clients. my attorney is typical.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.

Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [trifast99] [ In reply to ]
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trifast99 wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.


Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?[/quote]

Ummm; rhetorical question (given the audience you are talking to)?



@CycleHeavy
Last edited by: TriMeSBR: Sep 1, 15 11:47
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am absolutely amazed that this has escalated the way that it has

i'm not at all surprised that lawyers are now involved though

I am really curious to see if the relevant governing bodies are going to step in and take action or whether they are hoping that this will simply go away now that the kona slot issue has resolved itself?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.

IMO adding the fund raising dimension to her situation makes her transgressions even worse. I'm no lawyer but wonder if accepting money from people under false pretenses constitutes some kind of fraud, akin to folks who fake cancer and accepting money for their "treatments".

If her acceptance of those crowd funded donations is considered fraud, I would think that would be a major barrier (among many others) to JM coming clean about what really happened.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Overdistance] [ In reply to ]
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Overdistance wrote:
Sylvan - on chip reliability, not trying to re-direct this thread but what is the backup plan for a rolling start race if the chip does not read? How do you verify where a person started the swim at x:xx:xx in that situation? I realize that chips and scanners are very reliable but if a chip fails to register when you cross the mat surrounded by other competitors as you head into the water, there is no way for you (the competitor) to know that the chip did not register. Finding out after you finish the race that there was no start time would be devastating.

On the cheater side, a rolling start must open up a range of opportunities to circumvent the system in the absence of a backup verification system such as video of competitors entering swim with timestamp, etc. Especially for wetsuit swims where the chip (or absence thererof) is concealed underneath neoprene.

We place a main and backup timing system at all rolling start, the Mylaps Pro chip will read 100% on both lines at each line on the course. The batteries in these chips are good for 5 years and are sent in at the end of each year. When they get low they get replaced before they get a chance of not being read. We did have an issue with bad batches of chips a few years ago and they would die midway through the event (i.e 1 or 2 out of 2500) but the entire bad batch was replaced in 2013. We also have manual backup in place at key location like transition and finish line as well. We have requested a rule change as well that all awards and qualification times should be based on Electronic times only, meaning if you lose your chip and don't get a replacement you don't qualify....
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [trifast99] [ In reply to ]
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trifast99 wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.


Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?

She thought she wouldn't be caught. Or at least no-one would be able to PROVE she cheated, because she wasn't wearing a chip. "Oops I lost it" was a plausible defense as a one off, and her friend who blogged her support of JM is evidence of that. But she thought she could get away with it again, and again...

People do really dumb things all the time (petty criminals, politicians, you name it) thinking they won't get caught, or there will always be an element of doubt in people's minds if they do. Then they will deny and hope everyone will forget about it. But technology has caught up with JM and she underestimated the new power of social media.
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [TriMeSBR] [ In reply to ]
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TriMeSBR wrote:
trifast99 wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Given she apparently raised money from the local community to pay for some of her trips, I can see that there are some pretty pissed off people out there. I don't condone their actions if so, but I can see that more than just the people she cheated on the race course may be upset.

In her shoes I'm not sure how I would try to handle this. As Lance did for so long, denial seems to be the easiest way forward, but maybe as she comes to realize that everyone KNOWS she cheated, and given the fund-raising aspect to this also, she may want to chose the 'admission and apology' route as a better way to move forward with her life, certainly if she wants to remain in the same community. People are generally quite forgiving, as long as you admit your faults and apologise to those you've wronged.


Agreed- most people are forgiving. What will remain in many people's mind though is "WTF were you thinking?" Sacrifice your job(s), husband, children, reputation, family for a trip to Kona?[/quote]

Ummm; rhetorical question (given the audience you are talking to)?

LOL. So true. Perhaps I should have been more clear- by "sacrifice" I meant impacting their lives in a VERY negative way. Her daughters will learn about this one day and her friends will (are) question her mental health. What impact will this have on her future career goals?
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [y_nigel] [ In reply to ]
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y_nigel wrote:
... and a word that rhymes with 'meat'

ooh, ooh, I know this... "feat"?

as in: "incredible feat"
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Re: IM Canada F40-44: new thread [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
I am absolutely amazed that this has escalated the way that it has

i'm not at all surprised that lawyers are now involved though

I am really curious to see if the relevant governing bodies are going to step in and take action or whether they are hoping that this will simply go away now that the kona slot issue has resolved itself?

I think people take the safest course (not necessarily the easiest). Look at the Lehigh Valley Marathon race director. It was clear that Rossi cheated, but she (RD) wanted nothing to do with the right choice. So we are left to believe she is either too weak or too influenced to make the right decision.

That's what is so upsetting -- these people in positions to defend the honor of our sports don't make the right decisions. I think this is why we are seeing more witch hunts - clear cut cheating and yet there is no punishment and no reason not to continue cheating. PEDs, drafting, helmet mirrors, course cutting, jumping in earlier waves vs. VC firms and people lawyering up. When does it end?
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