Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots?
Quote | Reply
Ironman Yalta, Barcelona...more and more new Ironmans which is all nice and cool, but as I understand, the number of Kona slots is limited to 1500 or so. If you have a new IM, you need to add Kona slots, but if place is limited , you have to take slots away from some other IM race. Will soon only the winners qualify?
Any thoughts?
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
they always have room for lottery winners and celebreties. I think they can make room for a few more age groupers. Not sure why kona has a cap of 1500 when every other IM fits almost 3000.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [sinkinswimmer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sinkinswimmer wrote:
they always have room for lottery winners and celebreties. I think they can make room for a few more age groupers. Not sure why kona has a cap of 1500 when every other IM fits almost 3000.
i was thinking the same thing with the olympic marathon, i mean all other marathons have thousands?

hawaii is supposed to be the world championship.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
softrun wrote:
Ironman Yalta, Barcelona...more and more new Ironmans which is all nice and cool, but as I understand, the number of Kona slots is limited to 1500 or so. If you have a new IM, you need to add Kona slots, but if place is limited , you have to take slots away from some other IM race. Will soon only the winners qualify?
Any thoughts?

I don't have any hard info to back this, but I would suspect that it will move to a points/rankings qualification system like the pros. Hence the age group rankings that have popped up.

Badig| Strava


Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [sinkinswimmer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sinkinswimmer wrote:
they always have room for lottery winners and celebreties. I think they can make room for a few more age groupers. Not sure why kona has a cap of 1500 when every other IM fits almost 3000.

This has been covered ad nauseum here. The pier can only hold so many bikes. Plus there are almost 2000 athletes there. Given that half of them swim around an hour it's a massive clusterf#ck early on the bike.
And it is a world championship sanctioned by Ironman. They set qualification how they see fit.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [MeltingPot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Also don't understand why not 3,000 at Kona but I would say that it is time to consider one of the following: 1) two races in Kona, one the Championship and the other one simply Ironman Hawaii, 2) Have no age-group qualifying spots for new races. #2 is extreme but I bet you that the races still would sell out. Maybe the non-qualifier races could be cheaper?!!!

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [sinkinswimmer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You could always start just nipping slowly away at slots. 49, 48. Maybe they can raise more money for their charity and have lets say 40 AQ slots and then 10 "charity" roll down slots.

In many cases, yes, only the winner qualifies anyway for many age groups.

Maybe a hybrid where the first 40 slots get distributed in the traditional manner, then the next lets say 8 slots go to the next fastest males an females based on their finishing time. There you reduced it by 2 slots AND improved the overall level of competition.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [MeltingPot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MeltingPot wrote:
sinkinswimmer wrote:
they always have room for lottery winners and celebreties. I think they can make room for a few more age groupers. Not sure why kona has a cap of 1500 when every other IM fits almost 3000.

i was thinking the same thing with the olympic marathon, i mean all other marathons have thousands?

hawaii is supposed to be the world championship.


Yup--

But it isn't really strictly a world championship now is it? This has been debated a thousand times, but Kona is not limited to those trying for a world championship anymore than the European Championship or North American Championship, or Asia Pacific Championship are. If it was, Top Chef, Beckham, pro football payers, retired baseball players, reality tv stars, and lottery winners would not be included. But even if they expand to 50 races (a long way to go) that is 30 slots per race. Sounds harsh, but then the races are each less competitive due to the dilutive effect of more races. It really does not matter how many slots are at each qualifying race. The same number of people go to Kona.
Last edited by: sinkinswimmer: Apr 15, 14 11:46
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [tjfry] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tjfry wrote:
softrun wrote:
Ironman Yalta, Barcelona...more and more new Ironmans which is all nice and cool, but as I understand, the number of Kona slots is limited to 1500 or so. If you have a new IM, you need to add Kona slots, but if place is limited , you have to take slots away from some other IM race. Will soon only the winners qualify?
Any thoughts?


I don't have any hard info to back this, but I would suspect that it will move to a points/rankings qualification system like the pros. Hence the age group rankings that have popped up.

I think sooner rather than later one of 2 solutions will happen:
1. Age group ranking system similar to the pros
2. Qualification based on placing in a certain race (as today) but can only happen at selected IM races (e.g. regional championships)

The reduction of charity slots, lottery slots etc might be short-term fixes but those type of slots will probably always exists so I do not consider that a sustainable solution.

A
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
andreasjs wrote:
tjfry wrote:
softrun wrote:
Ironman Yalta, Barcelona...more and more new Ironmans which is all nice and cool, but as I understand, the number of Kona slots is limited to 1500 or so. If you have a new IM, you need to add Kona slots, but if place is limited , you have to take slots away from some other IM race. Will soon only the winners qualify?
Any thoughts?


I don't have any hard info to back this, but I would suspect that it will move to a points/rankings qualification system like the pros. Hence the age group rankings that have popped up.


I think sooner rather than later one of 2 solutions will happen:
1. Age group ranking system similar to the pros
2. Qualification based on placing in a certain race (as today) but can only happen at selected IM races (e.g. regional championships)

The reduction of charity slots, lottery slots etc might be short-term fixes but those type of slots will probably always exists so I do not consider that a sustainable solution.

A

I would assume they go with number 2, otherwise why roll out the ranking system globally. I think it would also encourage people to race more Ironman races.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
How many total participants race kona each year?
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [dado0583] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[/quote]

I would assume they go with number 2, otherwise why roll out the ranking system globally. I think it would also encourage people to race more Ironman races.[/quote]



Not sure if it would encourage many people to race more. Cost being a factor here (entry fee, travel, accommodation...) time for training etc. If you enter 4-5 or more IMs a year, how many of those will be actually races where you go full out?
Last edited by: softrun: Apr 15, 14 12:44
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Get rid of the lottery entirely. Add those slots to the new IM races. It's a world championship. Treat it like a world championship.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kentucky Mac wrote:
Get rid of the lottery entirely. Add those slots to the new IM races. It's a world championship. Treat it like a world championship.

1. eliminate the lottery - do lottery slots for something like AZ, CdA, Placid.
2. eliminate the celebrity entries - If Gordon Ramsey wants to do an Ironman let him get in line to register for one of the other races like everyone else.
3. eliminate the remaining KQ slots at 70.3 events - Eagleman, St. Croix. At this point the 70.3 series is well established - no reason to give out any KQs. I'd be okay with giving a slot to the 70.3 world champ from each AG. for the following year.
4. eliminate the legacy program entries - sorry, it's a world championship, not a competition of who can be more damn stuborn and do the most slow IMs in their lifetime.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This all seems reasonable with regard to eliminating the lottery and legacy. The lottery is pretty silly anyways. It's like if a country's Olympic Committee took a couple actual qualifiers for any given event and then randomly selected some from the general population based on a lottery because those people had always dreamed of competing in the Olympics but were never good enough.

Celebrity entries seem to bring extra attention to the sport, which brings in more sponsorships I assume. Probably a good thing. I don't have a huge problem with this.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I disagree with almost all of this:

1. I like the lottery. I like having a shot to do the race where it all started. They will also never get rid of it b/c:
a) $50/person * 20,000 (?) entries = $1m for WTC
b) The Collins' wanted the common man to be able to experience the event
2. Celebrity entrants bring more awareness and publicity to our sport - I'm all for it and think more people are apt to get involved in the sport if celebs bring attention.
3. I agree - get rid of 70.3 spots. Hopefully they are on the way out.
4. It may be a "world championship" but the reality is 90% of people don't have a shot to win their AG when they toe the line, even qualifiers. Look at the time differentials in qualifying races of folks who make it. There are realistically only a few people who could win their AG.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [IronStork] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry if it sounds harsh but experiencing triathlon where it all started is a reward for earning it. This applies to #4 below as well. You are absolutely correct that the vast majority of qualifiers don't stand a chance of being on the podium. But they earned the right to be there by working hard and making sacrifices to be the best they can be and qualifying by competing against everyone else. Kona is special to me because I earned the right to go there and suffer...and finish in the ass end of my AG.

IronStork wrote:
I disagree with almost all of this:

1. I like the lottery. I like having a shot to do the race where it all started. They will also never get rid of it b/c:
a) $50/person * 20,000 (?) entries = $1m for WTC
b) The Collins' wanted the common man to be able to experience the event
2. Celebrity entrants bring more awareness and publicity to our sport - I'm all for it and think more people are apt to get involved in the sport if celebs bring attention.
3. I agree - get rid of 70.3 spots. Hopefully they are on the way out.
4. It may be a "world championship" but the reality is 90% of people don't have a shot to win their AG when they toe the line, even qualifiers. Look at the time differentials in qualifying races of folks who make it. There are realistically only a few people who could win their AG.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kentucky Mac wrote:
Get rid of the lottery entirely. Add those slots to the new IM races. It's a world championship. Treat it like a world championship.

They do treat it like a World Championship...with a 2nd race for age groupers, challenged athletes, lottery winners & celebrities that starts 20 minutes later. People should stop deluding themselves that the fastest age groupers have anything to do with the world championships. They are irrelevant.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TH3_FRB wrote:
Sorry if it sounds harsh but experiencing triathlon where it all started is a reward for earning it.

That is, in fact, completely false.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TH3_FRB wrote:
Sorry if it sounds harsh but experiencing triathlon where it all started is a reward for earning it. This applies to #4 below as well. You are absolutely correct that the vast majority of qualifiers don't stand a chance of being on the podium. But they earned the right to be there by working hard and making sacrifices to be the best they can be and qualifying by competing against everyone else. Kona is special to me because I earned the right to go there and suffer...and finish in the ass end of my AG.


Triathlon did not start in Kona...nor did Ironman for that matter.
Last edited by: cjbruin: Apr 15, 14 14:02
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TH3_FRB wrote:
Kentucky Mac wrote:
Get rid of the lottery entirely. Add those slots to the new IM races. It's a world championship. Treat it like a world championship.


1. eliminate the lottery - do lottery slots for something like AZ, CdA, Placid.
2. eliminate the celebrity entries - If Gordon Ramsey wants to do an Ironman let him get in line to register for one of the other races like everyone else.
3. eliminate the remaining KQ slots at 70.3 events - Eagleman, St. Croix. At this point the 70.3 series is well established - no reason to give out any KQs. I'd be okay with giving a slot to the 70.3 world champ from each AG. for the following year.
4. eliminate the legacy program entries - sorry, it's a world championship, not a competition of who can be more damn stuborn and do the most slow IMs in their lifetime.

To be fair, a 'world championship' that is 90% amateurs is kind of ridiculous anyway. The distinction between pro and amateur is such nonsense in triathlon anyway. Whether they do a points qualifier or race qualifier.. it should just be lots of slots for an open category (like 1000+), then increasingly fewer slots for 45+, 55+, 65+, etc. Five year age groups is pretty silly also. And send the women off an hour before the men.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
When the Ironman was purchased many years ago, there was a condition that there would always be slots for the average person, hence the lottery.

Take a look at the times the lottery athlete post vs. the AG qualifiers.

"The men who try to do something and fail, are infinitely better off than those who try to do nothing and succeed." Lloyd James
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [sinkinswimmer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sinkinswimmer wrote:
MeltingPot wrote:
sinkinswimmer wrote:
they always have room for lottery winners and celebreties. I think they can make room for a few more age groupers. Not sure why kona has a cap of 1500 when every other IM fits almost 3000.

i was thinking the same thing with the olympic marathon, i mean all other marathons have thousands?

hawaii is supposed to be the world championship.


Yup--

But it isn't really strictly a world championship now is it? This has been debated a thousand times, but Kona is not limited to those trying for a world championship anymore than the European Championship or North American Championship, or Asia Pacific Championship are. If it was, Top Chef, Beckham, pro football payers, retired baseball players, reality tv stars, and lottery winners would not be included. But even if they expand to 50 races (a long way to go) that is 30 slots per race. Sounds harsh, but then the races are each less competitive due to the dilutive effect of more races. It really does not matter how many slots are at each qualifying race. The same number of people go to Kona.

Same goes for the Olympics. Until you give the Kenya at least 100 slots in the marathon it is not a true world championship. Better give them half the spots for the steeplechase too. And just like WTC the profit-seeking IOC is not immune to giving wildcard slots to whomever they want...or including sports sheerly on the basis of the revenue they will bring. Anyone that doubts that need only watch Eric Moussambani swim the 100 in the Sydney olympics. As noted many times, it is the quality of the competition that determines whether an event is worthy of being called a world championship, not a designation by some ostensible governing body.
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [tjfry] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tjfry wrote:
I don't have any hard info to back this, but I would suspect that it will move to a points/rankings qualification system like the pros. Hence the age group rankings that have popped up.


I could definitely see that happening as early as 2015. It would favor people who raced more instead of those who punch their ticket at an early season race and don't do another WTC event until Kona. That would probably cause a few ST'ers to have about two hemorrhages apiece.
Last edited by: cjbruin: Apr 15, 14 14:38
Quote Reply
Re: How will all these new Ironmans affect Kona slots? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
sinkinswimmer wrote:
MeltingPot wrote:
sinkinswimmer wrote:
they always have room for lottery winners and celebreties. I think they can make room for a few more age groupers. Not sure why kona has a cap of 1500 when every other IM fits almost 3000.

i was thinking the same thing with the olympic marathon, i mean all other marathons have thousands?

hawaii is supposed to be the world championship.


Yup--

But it isn't really strictly a world championship now is it? This has been debated a thousand times, but Kona is not limited to those trying for a world championship anymore than the European Championship or North American Championship, or Asia Pacific Championship are. If it was, Top Chef, Beckham, pro football payers, retired baseball players, reality tv stars, and lottery winners would not be included. But even if they expand to 50 races (a long way to go) that is 30 slots per race. Sounds harsh, but then the races are each less competitive due to the dilutive effect of more races. It really does not matter how many slots are at each qualifying race. The same number of people go to Kona.


Same goes for the Olympics. Until you give the Kenya at least 100 slots in the marathon it is not a true world championship. Better give them half the spots for the steeplechase too. And just like WTC the profit-seeking IOC is not immune to giving wildcard slots to whomever they want...or including sports sheerly on the basis of the revenue they will bring. Anyone that doubts that need only watch Eric Moussambani swim the 100 in the Sydney olympics. As noted many times, it is the quality of the competition that determines whether an event is worthy of being called a world championship, not a designation by some ostensible governing body.

Excellent point...Think Jamaican bobsled team.
Quote Reply

Prev Next