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How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R
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We had this funky "Tri-Conic" event on the weekend which was a Run, Bike and Swim done over three days. But the distances were varied and a little messy. So what happened was the "triathletes" we kinda got shutout and the 3-event overall awards are left to gather dust. They had 1st-3rd I'll say FPRO and MPRO podium scoring for each event (no AG's). And I wondered how the heck are they going to reconcile all 3 events? The answer is they couldn't!!

So I went to the details in 3-Event waterski and here's how it's done:

The winner of SBR is awarded 1000 points. To find an overall athlete's score you simply take the time fraction of best time/your time and multiply by 1000 as shown in the following:

Top score (mins)/Athlete Score (mins) *1000 = Points awarded for RUN, BIKE or SWIM
Athletes are ranked on total points = RUN+BIKE+SWIM

For example I did a calc for triathlete Brian C from our race this weekend:
RUN 102.5 mins/108.5*1000 = 945 pts (21.1K w/ big hills, this guy was quick)
BIKE 234.5/271.5*1000 = 865 (90km dbl black gravel, great bike leg too)
SWIM 28.3/64.5* 1000 =439 ( 2km but couldn't swim to save his life :)
Total Triathlon score = 2,249 pts

I did some other athletes and the calculation really works well in that it is representative of the aggregate time score, and is distance, even event independent. It also re-balances SBR to 100% equal weighting, which is something we've been dreaming about!

I think this can be used to compare your performances race to race even.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
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Re: How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:
We had this funky "Tri-Conic" event on the weekend which was a Run, Bike and Swim done over three days. But the distances were varied and a little messy. So what happened was the "triathletes" we kinda got shutout and the 3-event overall awards are left to gather dust. They had 1st-3rd I'll say FPRO and MPRO podium scoring for each event (no AG's). And I wondered how the heck are they going to reconcile all 3 events? The answer is they couldn't!!
So I went to the details in 3-Event waterski and here's how it's done:
The winner of SBR is awarded 1000 points. To find an overall athlete's score you simply take the time fraction of best time/your time and multiply by 1000 as shown in the following:
Top score (mins)/Athlete Score (mins) *1000 = Points awarded for RUN, BIKE or SWIM
Athletes are ranked on total points = RUN+BIKE+SWIM
For example I did a calc for triathlete Brian C from our race this weekend:
RUN 102.5 mins/108.5*1000 = 945 pts (21.1K w/ big hills, this guy was quick)
BIKE 234.5/271.5*1000 = 865 (90km dbl black gravel, great bike leg too)
SWIM 28.3/64.5* 1000 =439 ( 2km but couldn't swim to save his life :)
Total Triathlon score = 2,249 pts
I did some other athletes and the calculation really works well in that it is representative of the aggregate time score, and is distance, even event independent. It also re-balances SBR to 100% equal weighting, which is something we've been dreaming about!
I think this can be used to compare your performances race to race even.

Ya, this is very similar to the way all other "athlons" are scored, e.g., decathlon, heptathlon, modern pentathlon, etc. I would love to see this type of scoring but, as you are well aware, most triathletes would NOT like this arrangement since it gives the swim even weight with the B and R, and most tri-geeks would HATE to have their swim so cruelly evaluated. I'm pretty sure most tri-geeks have NOT been "dreaming about 100% equal weighting." :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
SharkFM wrote:
We had this funky "Tri-Conic" event on the weekend which was a Run, Bike and Swim done over three days. But the distances were varied and a little messy. So what happened was the "triathletes" we kinda got shutout and the 3-event overall awards are left to gather dust. They had 1st-3rd I'll say FPRO and MPRO podium scoring for each event (no AG's). And I wondered how the heck are they going to reconcile all 3 events? The answer is they couldn't!!
So I went to the details in 3-Event waterski and here's how it's done:
The winner of SBR is awarded 1000 points. To find an overall athlete's score you simply take the time fraction of best time/your time and multiply by 1000 as shown in the following:
Top score (mins)/Athlete Score (mins) *1000 = Points awarded for RUN, BIKE or SWIM
Athletes are ranked on total points = RUN+BIKE+SWIM
For example I did a calc for triathlete Brian C from our race this weekend:
RUN 102.5 mins/108.5*1000 = 945 pts (21.1K w/ big hills, this guy was quick)
BIKE 234.5/271.5*1000 = 865 (90km dbl black gravel, great bike leg too)
SWIM 28.3/64.5* 1000 =439 ( 2km but couldn't swim to save his life :)
Total Triathlon score = 2,249 pts
I did some other athletes and the calculation really works well in that it is representative of the aggregate time score, and is distance, even event independent. It also re-balances SBR to 100% equal weighting, which is something we've been dreaming about!
I think this can be used to compare your performances race to race even.


Ya, this is very similar to the way all other "athlons" are scored, e.g., decathlon, heptathlon, modern pentathlon, etc. I would love to see this type of scoring but, as you are well aware, most triathletes would NOT like this arrangement since it gives the swim even weight with the B and R, and most tri-geeks would HATE to have their swim so cruelly evaluated. I'm pretty sure most tri-geeks have NOT been "dreaming about 100% equal weighting." :)


Well.......if they raised the basketball goal to 12', there'd be a lot less people dunking.

But, then it wouldn't be basketball. It would be some F'd up concoction that a vertically blessed minority put together to stroke their egos.

:)
Last edited by: nc452010: Jul 7, 17 10:37
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Re: How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
SharkFM wrote:
We had this funky "Tri-Conic" event on the weekend which was a Run, Bike and Swim done over three days. But the distances were varied and a little messy. So what happened was the "triathletes" we kinda got shutout and the 3-event overall awards are left to gather dust. They had 1st-3rd I'll say FPRO and MPRO podium scoring for each event (no AG's). And I wondered how the heck are they going to reconcile all 3 events? The answer is they couldn't!!
So I went to the details in 3-Event waterski and here's how it's done:
The winner of SBR is awarded 1000 points. To find an overall athlete's score you simply take the time fraction of best time/your time and multiply by 1000 as shown in the following:
Top score (mins)/Athlete Score (mins) *1000 = Points awarded for RUN, BIKE or SWIM
Athletes are ranked on total points = RUN+BIKE+SWIM
For example I did a calc for triathlete Brian C from our race this weekend:
RUN 102.5 mins/108.5*1000 = 945 pts (21.1K w/ big hills, this guy was quick)
BIKE 234.5/271.5*1000 = 865 (90km dbl black gravel, great bike leg too)
SWIM 28.3/64.5* 1000 =439 ( 2km but couldn't swim to save his life :)
Total Triathlon score = 2,249 pts
I did some other athletes and the calculation really works well in that it is representative of the aggregate time score, and is distance, even event independent. It also re-balances SBR to 100% equal weighting, which is something we've been dreaming about!
I think this can be used to compare your performances race to race even.


Ya, this is very similar to the way all other "athlons" are scored, e.g., decathlon, heptathlon, modern pentathlon, etc. I would love to see this type of scoring but, as you are well aware, most triathletes would NOT like this arrangement since it gives the swim even weight with the B and R, and most tri-geeks would HATE to have their swim so cruelly evaluated. I'm pretty sure most tri-geeks have NOT been "dreaming about 100% equal weighting." :)


Well.......if they raised the basketball goal to 12', there'd be a lot less people dunking.
But, then it wouldn't be basketball. It would be some F'd up concoction that a vertically blessed minority put together to stroke their egos.
:)

I think they should raise the goal to 20 ft so that no one can dunk. This would even the playing court out a bit, although the tall guys would still get the most rebounds. In any case, b-ball does not have much bearing on triathlon.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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I took this further and I did a spreadsheet to summarize/calculate the overall scoring, pictured below. You can see this complicated concoction of a race, besides being void of triathletes in the area that I know of (where were they?) we did need some kind of reconciliation. I could give two hoots if this was a novice event, but this particular race was quite difficult & traumatic at times. The small group that took on all 3 events invested some serious time, $ and busted their asses. I'll do a race report in another thread.

Using the spreadsheet, you can point-normalize say your last 3 events and see how you did in terms of overall points. It's time/course independent. All that matters is you vs the top performance on the day. Imo the time or clock-watching between events in different locations, cities etc. make no sense. Because the courses, conditions etc are very different. But held to the standard of the best time per event, then comparison makes logical sense.

Also there is the option of actually running a shorter swim or bike legs, if conditions dictate without penalizing good swimmers or bikers. This is because it's relative time-based for points - follow? If you want a copy of the XLS just PM or email me pjager@jageng.com




Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
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Re: How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Good idea with a lot of merit.

1) Too bad it wasn't scored like this from the beginning because now we're working against history.

2) We've all been training one way for so long that few people will benefit or want to change what they are doing.

3) The bike may not be as important and that has financial implications.

Some questions:

Could the first person across the line not win with the point system? Would people accept that result - final results not matching finish order?

What about transition times?
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Re: How to score disparate events, or rebalance S-B-R [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:
We had this funky "Tri-Conic" event on the weekend which was a Run, Bike and Swim done over three days. But the distances were varied and a little messy. So what happened was the "triathletes" we kinda got shutout and the 3-event overall awards are left to gather dust. They had 1st-3rd I'll say FPRO and MPRO podium scoring for each event (no AG's). And I wondered how the heck are they going to reconcile all 3 events? The answer is they couldn't!!

So I went to the details in 3-Event waterski and here's how it's done:

The winner of SBR is awarded 1000 points. To find an overall athlete's score you simply take the time fraction of best time/your time and multiply by 1000 as shown in the following:

Top score (mins)/Athlete Score (mins) *1000 = Points awarded for RUN, BIKE or SWIM
Athletes are ranked on total points = RUN+BIKE+SWIM

For example I did a calc for triathlete Brian C from our race this weekend:
RUN 102.5 mins/108.5*1000 = 945 pts (21.1K w/ big hills, this guy was quick)
BIKE 234.5/271.5*1000 = 865 (90km dbl black gravel, great bike leg too)
SWIM 28.3/64.5* 1000 =439 ( 2km but couldn't swim to save his life :)
Total Triathlon score = 2,249 pts

I did some other athletes and the calculation really works well in that it is representative of the aggregate time score, and is distance, even event independent. It also re-balances SBR to 100% equal weighting, which is something we've been dreaming about!

I think this can be used to compare your performances race to race even.

As a way to compare your performances race to race it's clearly good. However, with regard to 100% equal weighting, that's still open to debate. It gives equal weighting to the percentage of the winners time. However, if one looks at IM cutoffs (as a guide to time lost) and compares to a winning age group time of, say 50, 4:45, 3:10, then the slowest swimmers take 2.8 times the winning AG time, the slowest bikers 1.72 times and the slowest runners 2.05 times. Depending on how you define equal weighting, maybe those need to be taken into consideration? Ignoring the swimming for a second (as that always muddies a debate on a triathlon forum!!!), it would appear to be easier to lose/gain time on the run than it is on the bike, therefore is equal weighting actually equal weighting?!!!!
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