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How to make sense of train slow, race fast?
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After thinking about the topic of HIIT, I come to this approach of doing medium-length and long slow runs slowly with a block of lower volume and higher pace at the final 3-4 weeks before an event (no idea what to call it, or if it has a name).

It seems that this train slow and race fast program/idea(l) is widely accepted. Does it work for long course racing?

IMO, if 90% of your volume is performed at a slow pace (below threshold), and you try to do the speed work before a race that your body will not be adequately prepared to perform at a much higher pace because of the different requirements, demands, and stress placed on the skeletal muscular system.
Last edited by: original: Jan 4, 18 10:42
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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I don't agree with your definition of slow. (anything slower than threshold).

https://reluctantmultisport.wordpress.com
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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marklemcd wrote:
I don't agree with your definition of slow. (anything slower than threshold).

I think you're right. I was hung up on that definition when I wrote the post.

So let's say that slow is anything below 140-150 beats per minute.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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I'm stealing then paraphrasing the stolen quote since I don't remember it exactly nor do I remember from whom or where I saw it:

Without lots of low intensity training your high intensity training isn't going to help you too much

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
twitter & IG = @accelerate3
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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I run 60-70 miles per week. Probably 90% or more of it is at a very low HR (sub-140). Once (sometimes twice) per week I'll run much faster and at a much higher intensity (anywhere from 20-40 mins of work per week). It works for me.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
I run 60-70 miles per week. Probably 90% or more of it is at a very low HR (sub-140). Once (sometimes twice) per week I'll run much faster and at a much higher intensity (anywhere from 20-40 mins of work per week). It works for me.

That's very helpful. I kinda figured that there must be some faster/speed work in there somewhere.

I've always been an idiot about thinking that to run fast that I need to run fast (or faster) throughout the week- and that gets me injured (eventually).

Ironically, the same formula seems to have difficulty in the cycling discipline?
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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solid miles dude, nice work

_______________________________________________________
@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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It works for all racing roughly 2min in length or longer. Look up how the world's best 800m track and 200m freestylers train. It's a huge departure from how 400m/100m and down folks train. In swimming 2-4min events are middle distance. 7-15min events are distance events. Swimming and track have a better grasp on "distance" as it applies to physiology than us silly triathletes.

Basically break your training into three zones. 1 < LT1 < 2 < LT2 < 3

LT1 and LT2 are the breakpoints in a lactate curve. Roughly do 80-95% of your time-volume in 1.

Widely accepted... atrociously adopted and misunderstood.

Physiological premise... 1 builds heaps of mitochondria... and it's the nuanced interplay between fatiguing yourself in 1 and occasionally fatiguing yourself in 3 that builds great fitness.

_______________________________________________________
@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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I think the best way to accept or make sense of it is to surround yourself with some fop guys who train like this. Watch them, ask them questions.

The guys who train slow and race fast are logging bulk hours consistently year round. They don't have one or two big weeks they have months of it. Youll find they dont have an off season and they are confident in themselves that they don't need to prove anything in training.

They will also have their nutrition dialled in to a t so that come raceday they can also fuel themselves to the next level.

I hate to open a can of worms but this is where the hflc crew nail it. Training low, building the aerobic engine they need on minimal carbs then on raceday introducing the carbs they need to fuel their body to the next level.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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I've run my 15km and half-marathon PRs (both sub-4min/km) this fall, but the last time I ran that pace before those two races was more than a year ago. In fact, I don't have a single session on my log with an interval faster than 4:30/km. What I do have is consistent, week in week out runs at conversational pace, Z1 for me. I run them with my wife, along the beach, in the neighbourhood or on off-road trails and make sure we're both talking; over time, this progressed from 5:40 pace average to 5:10 on the same routes, and even lower HR than before. I finish a run, shower, and feel like I could go again - which is exactly the point, the next day I do go again.

Get your aerobic system into gear. The body will know what do to with it when it needs to.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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The way I look at it is as follows:

Let’s say you have a max heart rate of 175 and your aerobic system maxes out at the 140 used in your example above.

140/175 = 80%

Above 140 you are tapping different energy systems.

Why flog yourself above 140 to increase 20% of the pie.

Increase your aerobic system with increased volume and drastically reduce risk of injury.

You will not be fast at any distance if your injured.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Without lots of low intensity training your high intensity training isn't going to help you too much

And without high intensity training? If I was short of time and had to skimp on either...
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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Sooo are we saying the same thing for cycling? Alot of slow ridding? I'm coming off the mentality of high-intensity all the time.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [Brett runs] [ In reply to ]
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Brett runs wrote:
They will also have their nutrition dialled in to a t so that come raceday they can also fuel themselves to the next level.

I hate to open a can of worms but this is where the hflc crew nail it. Training low, building the aerobic engine they need on minimal carbs then on raceday introducing the carbs they need to fuel their body to the next level.

How do you dial in nutrition if you're not training the way you race?

Example: A friend of mine does most a lot of her training in Z2 with short Z4 interval work, and she's fine on her nutritional plan. When she races, she spends more time in Z3 and gets wicked leg cramps and has real GI trouble, regardless of whether she uses her pre-planned, pre-practiced nutrition or grabs what's on the course.

Do other people have that problem? How do you solve it if you're following a philosophy of "train slow, race fast"? We're trying to figure out whether she should be training more in Z3, or attempting to race in Z2. She's heading for her first full this year, and it's a major headache.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Sooo are we saying the same thing for cycling? Alot of slow ridding? I'm coming off the mentality of high-intensity all the time.

You can do a lot of slowtraining and it will work the problem is it’s A LOT of slow training. Hence why you hear about pro cyclists doing 6-7 hour rides frequent they aren’t crushing those rides it just takes a lot for that adaptation to occur.

The key is trying to determine how much time you have to train and how hard you can go to recover and train at that same level consistently.

There is a chart in Training and Racing with a power meter that gives which zones produce what levels of adaptation.

-----------------------------------------------------------
De Soto Sport Athlete
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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Running slowly is important. But the concept of train slow race fast is incorrect. The real key is "train fast at the right time race fast".

I've had some success running, and never is all or anywhere close to 90% of my volume done slowly even when I was up in the triple digits in weekly volume. And even on days where you go slower, it's important to touch on speed like with doing strides.

On a truly easy day I don't worry about speed or pace at all. And when fit my recovery days will be 2+ minutes slower than marathon pace. But my general aerobic pace that I'd do for an unstructured long run will be more like 45 seconds slower than marathon pace. And then obviously my workouts will have paces much faster than marathon pace.

When I was peaking I had a schedule that usually had a structure where 1 days was a general aerobic day with 10-12 miles, a workout the next day, recovery on day 3, another general aerobic day on day 4, a light workouts on day 5, a long run on day 6 and a recovery day on day 7. And strides on 3-4 of those days. I wouldn't hold this schedule while increasing mileage, but this was when I was in the meat of a build. And very little of it is defined as "slow", and this is a very common type of competitive runners schedule (this is a structure that some used on the old Nike Farm Team under Jack Daniels).

https://reluctantmultisport.wordpress.com
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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[jstonebarger]


If you're short on time you still need that LIT time. Do you HIT but make sure you've got some LIT in there.


Most triathletes do a great job of being somewhere between LIT & HIT the majority of the time.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
twitter & IG = @accelerate3
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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Here are two of my workouts that may help illustrate the “how it might work” part. There are two runs that I did the past week on the order of 80-90minutes, 80% or more at at zone1/2 intensity (ventilatory threshold - supported by breathing in through the nose is a good reference if you aren’t on HR). I DO combine speed with slow on the same days (I have been doing about two months of strictly slow and high volume up till now and am dipping in the higher intensity well). I save the speed for late in the routine; for one to see if I can hit the target efforts on tires legs and also preserve as much low effort time as possible (I find that if I go fast early, running at low intensity and meeting the target levels is more difficult).

For this session I worked into 4x 4min @ 5:45/mile pace (For my 3hr marathon VDot)
https://www.movescount.com/moves/move19316408

For this session I did a pretty long run and then worked into a 10min effort at a 5:50-6:00pace with two one-minute reaches into 5:15 area (VO2). I know the VO2 efforts probably need to be higher in number and closer together, but as I mention, just getting into speed so I find there is as much value in the leg turnover that is achieved.
https://www.movescount.com/moves/move193323577

For swim and bike I do exactly the same, although when on the mountain bike, it’s a little more difficult to exercise the discipline around the parameters because sometimes it simply requires efforts that are extraneous to the targets.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [UK2ME] [ In reply to ]
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Please tell me when/if you get an answer to this. I suffer the same during races (debilitating leg cramps) yet train mostly in Z3. Nutrition plan seems fine (300 k/cal/hr, 20oz water/hr, 2 salts/hr). Not sure I can consume any more?
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [Pathlete] [ In reply to ]
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cramps often fitness related.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [MattQ] [ In reply to ]
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MattQ wrote:
cramps often fitness related.

exactly.

A lot more frequent than not, "cramping" is just lack of endurance.
Refer back to the start of the topic to figure out how to build further endurance.
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [original] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious how this applies to bigger guys. I am overweight, take that for what it is. But for me, to train "slow", I need to basically walk. Even a slow run 11:00/mi eventually gets my heart rate up. Is it still prescribed to do most work at low HR?
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]
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cmd111183 wrote:
I'm curious how this applies to bigger guys. I am overweight, take that for what it is. But for me, to train "slow", I need to basically walk. Even a slow run 11:00/mi eventually gets my heart rate up. Is it still prescribed to do most work at low HR?

run/walk.

progress by running a bit more and walking a bit less each week
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Re: How to make sense of train slow, race fast? [Pathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Pathlete wrote:
Please tell me when/if you get an answer to this. I suffer the same during races (debilitating leg cramps) yet train mostly in Z3. Nutrition plan seems fine (300 k/cal/hr, 20oz water/hr, 2 salts/hr). Not sure I can consume any more?

More miles, less Z3.

https://reluctantmultisport.wordpress.com
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