Threads like this and this and this come up all the time and they make me sick. So many triathletes are paying hundreds of dollars for services that are either provided poorly or not provided at all. In some cases, they are being outright defrauded. If you don't believe me, search "retul fit" and see what you turn up. I cannot make this stuff up.
The fit charade is a big problem in the sport. These charlatan 'fitters' and the local bike shops that employ them are robbing athletes of money, comfort, and performance -- they are charging huge sums for a service that makes athletes slower and less comfortable during the most time-intensive portion of the sport. For something as fundamental as a proper bike fit, poor results here could lead to injury and likely do. Worse still, one of the more famous (and infamous) coaches in triathlon has his pros riding with their seats miles too high. Reputation doesn't mean shit here.
My question: So what do we do to identify these incompetent profiteers? What are the tools good or exceptional fitters use? What are their credentials and certifications?
My answer: Part of the smoke and mirrors associated with this nonsense are those "tools" and "certifications", which these people push or advertise to boost their credibility. And triathletes, of course, who are the biggest suckers for baseless, name brand marketing on earth (whatup BryanD!) eat this stuff up. Retul, FIST, Dartfish, motion capture: these are often hollow terms thrown around to perpetuate highway robbery.
As he often does, slowman challenged me recently about what tools best-in-class fitters might use. I'm not a fitter and don't claim to be, but as a passive observer I'm going to simply excerpt trentnix in my reply:
I've said it before but it bears repeating: I might own hammers, power tools, and a level, but you still don't want me to do any carpentry for you. I'm unskilled and have very limited knowledge when it comes to carpentry. Many bike fitters own the right tools but are lacking either skill, knowledge, or discipline to use them right.
On the other hand, we deal with shops (that have no competent fitters and that produce terrible fits) on an almost daily basis...in fact, these shops are effectively a carpenter who doesn't own hammers, power tools, and a level assuring you that he can build you a house with your bear hands. You'd never hire a carpenter who didn't use effective tools, and you shouldn't hire a bike fitter that doesn't use effective tools either.
Steinmetz says something similar.
So I am going to go out on a limb here and say the most important tool a fitter has is the internet. People on this forum, even those who aren't fitters, are better than nearly all of the local bike shop morons out there. With the advent of the internet, why is nobody offering fit by web? That's the tool of the future in this space -- not lasers and optical sensors and whiz bang tech, which are more often misused than properly applied.
My experience: Back when I was new to the sport and knew nothing, I bounced around to different jokers, each of whom talked better and performed worse than the one before. I legit spent four figures before I finally just came on the internet (here, really, and people I met here) and dialed it in in my basement. To wit:
I mean what is the actual shit is going on here?!? If my experience is any guide -- and based on my observations and MDot races, I fared better than many -- triathletes are getting totally screwed by their fitters and shops. Especially financially. Yet you guys, including the fearless dictator, are up in arms about registration fee obfuscation.
Granted, stan is doing more than anyone else on the planet to combat this issue and educate the community, but he's not being critical enough. He's not taking these clowns to task. They suck, and they should know it -- and more importantly, you should know it. And those new to the sport especially ought to know it.
My conclusion: If there's a shred of doubt, stay away from your local bike shop. They are charlatans and they are coming for your money and the tendons in your knees and they are stealing speed and results out from under you. Caveat emptor is an understatement.
Here's my advice: start a thread asking for advice and try to sort out the wheat from the chaff -- it's free! -- and then send a PM to tri-run, Findin' Freestyle, trentnix, Mat Steinmetz, slowman, or the rest and get a fit by internet. Work out a fee structure that makes sense for them. Upload videos to YouTube and go back and forth as you make changes. Demo saddles for days or weeks, not minutes, and see how you like them.
Now that I know better, I continue to make micro changes attempting to optimize my fit with (free) third-party input. Steinmetz talks about doing this with Andy Potts over a period of years, changing saddle position by a millimeter at a time. This is an iterative process. Why are we trying to make it happen in one appointment with an entirely unqualified idiot?
They really should pay me for this.
The fit charade is a big problem in the sport. These charlatan 'fitters' and the local bike shops that employ them are robbing athletes of money, comfort, and performance -- they are charging huge sums for a service that makes athletes slower and less comfortable during the most time-intensive portion of the sport. For something as fundamental as a proper bike fit, poor results here could lead to injury and likely do. Worse still, one of the more famous (and infamous) coaches in triathlon has his pros riding with their seats miles too high. Reputation doesn't mean shit here.
My question: So what do we do to identify these incompetent profiteers? What are the tools good or exceptional fitters use? What are their credentials and certifications?
My answer: Part of the smoke and mirrors associated with this nonsense are those "tools" and "certifications", which these people push or advertise to boost their credibility. And triathletes, of course, who are the biggest suckers for baseless, name brand marketing on earth (whatup BryanD!) eat this stuff up. Retul, FIST, Dartfish, motion capture: these are often hollow terms thrown around to perpetuate highway robbery.
As he often does, slowman challenged me recently about what tools best-in-class fitters might use. I'm not a fitter and don't claim to be, but as a passive observer I'm going to simply excerpt trentnix in my reply:
trentnix wrote:
Indeed, I see lots of bad fits done with motion capture tools, whether it be Retul, Dartfish, or whatever else. These are simply measuring devices - nothing more, nothing less. Just because they aren't used effectively by many fitters doesn't mean they aren't useful. We use Retul, I personally use Retul, and I find it indispensable. It provides accuracy and insight that my eyes are simply unable to see. I use it to validate what I see, but I'm still the one driving the fit. I've said it before but it bears repeating: I might own hammers, power tools, and a level, but you still don't want me to do any carpentry for you. I'm unskilled and have very limited knowledge when it comes to carpentry. Many bike fitters own the right tools but are lacking either skill, knowledge, or discipline to use them right.
On the other hand, we deal with shops (that have no competent fitters and that produce terrible fits) on an almost daily basis...in fact, these shops are effectively a carpenter who doesn't own hammers, power tools, and a level assuring you that he can build you a house with your bear hands. You'd never hire a carpenter who didn't use effective tools, and you shouldn't hire a bike fitter that doesn't use effective tools either.
Steinmetz says something similar.
So I am going to go out on a limb here and say the most important tool a fitter has is the internet. People on this forum, even those who aren't fitters, are better than nearly all of the local bike shop morons out there. With the advent of the internet, why is nobody offering fit by web? That's the tool of the future in this space -- not lasers and optical sensors and whiz bang tech, which are more often misused than properly applied.
My experience: Back when I was new to the sport and knew nothing, I bounced around to different jokers, each of whom talked better and performed worse than the one before. I legit spent four figures before I finally just came on the internet (here, really, and people I met here) and dialed it in in my basement. To wit:
I mean what is the actual shit is going on here?!? If my experience is any guide -- and based on my observations and MDot races, I fared better than many -- triathletes are getting totally screwed by their fitters and shops. Especially financially. Yet you guys, including the fearless dictator, are up in arms about registration fee obfuscation.
Granted, stan is doing more than anyone else on the planet to combat this issue and educate the community, but he's not being critical enough. He's not taking these clowns to task. They suck, and they should know it -- and more importantly, you should know it. And those new to the sport especially ought to know it.
My conclusion: If there's a shred of doubt, stay away from your local bike shop. They are charlatans and they are coming for your money and the tendons in your knees and they are stealing speed and results out from under you. Caveat emptor is an understatement.
Here's my advice: start a thread asking for advice and try to sort out the wheat from the chaff -- it's free! -- and then send a PM to tri-run, Findin' Freestyle, trentnix, Mat Steinmetz, slowman, or the rest and get a fit by internet. Work out a fee structure that makes sense for them. Upload videos to YouTube and go back and forth as you make changes. Demo saddles for days or weeks, not minutes, and see how you like them.
Now that I know better, I continue to make micro changes attempting to optimize my fit with (free) third-party input. Steinmetz talks about doing this with Andy Potts over a period of years, changing saddle position by a millimeter at a time. This is an iterative process. Why are we trying to make it happen in one appointment with an entirely unqualified idiot?
They really should pay me for this.
Last edited by:
PubliusValerius: Feb 14, 17 9:44
