15 or even more

How long is a piece of string? Without knowing an athletes current fitness, weight, history of the sport, genetics, etc, etc, anything posted on here would be a wild guess. Someone of low fitness and history of the sport is going to respond to a lot better to someone with history and fitness without taking in other factors. Of course a proper structure will help more but what are you doing in the unstructured sessions as well???

...thanks for the update ;-) I most certainly like your sense of humor.
U

33.28 watts.

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Nothing. Seriously.

Metrics are great for measuring, but beyond that what's so "proper" about structure?

Hopefully about 45 minutes, because that is how much I need to improve my PR by this year.

Is your training structured (or un-structured) as it is because you are so busy that it just happens when it happens?
Or because you desire it to happen organically and don't really like to plan?

I ask this because structured training works, but really only for those who are somewhat wired for structure and are willing to change what they are doing in order to improve.

Many athletes just want to have fun, ride with their buddies, etc.. Sometimes coaching doesn't work out for athletes like this.

It is not as simple as "get a coach".

Coaching is easily adapted for athletes like this.
This type of athlete will make the biggest gains of all by incorporating a little advice.

It is unstructured because my schedule is very flexible. So training happens when it happens. I was just wondering how much more one could achieve if the overall volume remained the same but with a prescribed program.
Thanks a lot for your input
U

Hate to say it, but 'it depends'.

At 7 hrs, you're probably not maxxing out your potential, and overtraining is less of a risk, so that's less of an issue.

Still, if you are busting tail at 7hrs/wk unstructured, I suspect you'll only get a small/tiny boost from structured training.

I sort of did this myself. I did structured bike training on TR (HIM bike plan) a few years back pegged to my FTP, added running + swimming on top. I did the vast majority of the TR plan, and it was friggin hard, and I wasn't even running a ton. Probably ended up slightly overtrained at 10+hrs/wk, and had a USAT score performance of 80. I will admit that I prioritized training over things like sleep and stress, so I def could have rested better in retrospect (at the cost of training hours.)

Fast forward to the last 2 years, where I've averaged a lot closer to 7-8hrs/wk and rarely go over 11 hrs/wk anymore. I was intending to pull back on training/racing due to increased work/family commitments, but make the hours I have COUNT, and for once, really focus on rest and recovery. When in doubt - recover! And if I miss days - not terrible for me - it's just more recovery to improve quality on the next session!

As a result, I've hit USAT scores of 84+ at all my races in the last 2 years, which is a personal high. And to boot, I have done very little truly structured training - most of the time I just set my Kickr to some reasonable watt target on my phone (no Trainerroad) and adjust it on the fly to how I feel. No mileage targets, no time targets, but lots of attention to how my body is feeling, and focusing on being 'sharp' on the good days.

I def don't think it's a guaranteed win to go 'structured', esp the first few times around - you can get too committed to the plan and even overdo it (without overtraining) at times to your own detriment.

I would say the plan becomes a LOT more important when training for long stuff where you have to build up over a long period. In particular, the marathon (not IM, but marathon). If you just 'wing it' for the marathon, you can get really broken, really quickly by doing too much too soon. The plan in that case is valuable for holding you back from doing something stupid, and pushing you a bit when you're at your old limits.

I’ve posted a topic very similar to this last night. I want to get serious about my training and having a structured approach seemed the logical next step. Can anyone recommend how to do this-is there plans you would recommend purchasing (trainingpeaks/triathlon taren etc) or just my x and match all the free ones available online?

Depends how good you are at doing unstructured training. If you've got a long history in sport, have a good feel and understanding of when to go hard, how hard to go, and when to back off, then there could be little to nothing to be gained by doing more structured training. You could even lose performance if the structure you adopt isn't a very good one and is holding you back - even when I have a structured training plan to follow I'm a firm believer in listening to your body and adapting the plan as you go.

On the other hand if you have little to no sporting background and have no idea how hard you should be going, then unstructured training is likely leaving a lot of untapped potential out there.

Hey U,

My name is Bryce and I work for TrainerRoad.

While we at TrainerRoad are of course biased towards structure, there is a reason for that: it makes our users faster. Comparing 7 hours unstructured vs 7 hours structured, you will see big improvements in your bike leg. Of course, I cannot say whether you will save 5 min or 15 min becasue that depends on what your current PR is. Whether you are a top age grouper, mid pack, or in the tail end of the pack will determine how much time you can save, because as we all know, the faster you get, the harder those time savings become.

Structure is especially helpful for users who are not spending much time on the bike each week becasue it allows you to produce much more stress in a short time. For example, 7 hours per week of endurance paced riding is likely not enough stress to force significant adaptation. But 7 hours of highly structured and specific training can be extremely stressful and will help push you to that next level.

I hope that makes sense, good luck with the rest of your season!

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I'll go out on a limb. First I'll say that I've been blessed to have an awesome coach, twice. So that's where I'm going to speak from.
I would guess if your just an average Joe staying fit doing sbr however you might do it without any real and purposeful plan, I think following some type of structured plan can a huge benefit. I don't know much about TR, but I question whether they account for the training load of the s+r.
Following a structured plan takes me from feeling like some average Joe sbring throughout the year to feeling unimaginably strong when I am peaking out for a big race. It's amazing, and I do credit following a structured, balanced plan. Whether it comes from a coach or a book or online, whatever, it usually isn't just random. The plans follow an order of progression to effect adaptations, and that's what makes "Joe" into a contender.

I was pointed to this presentation a while back by someone I'd like to give credit to, but forget their name. I think it answers your question fairly succinctly

Your question is unanswerable because what you've asked is this:
"What's the difference in results between structured training and something else?"
We don't know what the "something else" is, and by the sounds of it, neither do you.

There's no reason why your unstructured training couldn't happen to transpire identically to a well planned, structured approach. It's just very unlikely. Similarly your unstructured training could consist of 7hrs of ridiculously easy spinning. So the difference could be zero, or it could be massive. Anyone suggesting they have a sensible answer is either messing with you, talking nonsense, or making lots of assumptions that they really need to include in their answer.

Assuming the same level of workload, not much difference. The trick is getting that same level of workload without structure, you need something to base it off of.

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Assuming the same level of workload, not much difference. The trick is getting that same level of workload without structure, you need something to base it off of.[/quote]
...I was thinking along the same lines.... Currently I am trying to train in all zones during each workout I do - to compensate for the missing structure and not to miss a "key session" due to a messed up schedule.

My overall intensity distribution is approx. 80% Z2 and 20% Z4/5. When I know I will have two rest days in a row I will run/bike more time in Z4 and if I know I can train on three/four consecutive days I might skip the speed work altogether in on the middle day.

A 60 min run for example would then look like, 45 min easy/moderate and then either 15 min 10k pace or 3x4 min at sub 10k pace.

So far I did not break/got injured on this regimen but I am also not sure if that makes any sense at all... I'll report back how it goes.
Uli

My first thought is this - why are you limited to only 7 hrs a week? I think that virtually everyone can fit in 10-12 hrs a week if they really want to. I have two young kinds, a job, and spend time with the family when they're awake. Getting up between 4-4:30 to get the workouts in allows me to pretty 'easily' fit in more workout time.

I make the choice to only watch TV when I'm on the treadmill or trainer. Most folks say they have no time to workout, but they make the choice to watch TV for several hours at a time (not saying this is you).

If you could add in 3-5 more hours a week you'd probably make a ton more progress.

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As many have stated it depends a lot on where you are starting from. If you have never been coached in any type of endurance sport by someone who knows what they are doing or you do not otherwise have some decent knowledge of modern training techniques, you don't even know what you don't know so I would say you could easily see a 15 minute or more improvement in a HIM if you get a decent plan and properly execute it. On the other hand, if you were a competitive swimmer or cross country runner at a decent level back in the day, you are very likely going to just naturally fall into some structure even if you don't have a written out plan since the basics of training have been internalized. Gains from more discipline will still come but they will be less.

As for training volume and intensity, the less time you are spending training and the farther your workouts are from a well structured plan, the more you are going to gain from structure. Perfect structure at the highest ends of the sport is about eeking out that last 1%. For someone in the middle of the pack with just 7 hours a week to spend, that is really where you see the biggest percentage gains. The less time you have, the more you benefit from efficiently using that time. You can do a lot on 7 hours a week but you can't waste any of those hours.

When someone says they're able or willing to spend X amount of time training on this forum, it's astonishing how often they are challenged on it. If the question was "How do you find time to train?" this would be a valid comment. But that was not the question, and he's telling you how much time he has. Surely he doesn't have to justify that to your satisfaction?

Everyone can change their lives if they really want to, but if they don't ask you for advice on their priorities in life, it's more than a little presumptuous of you to volunteer it.

You think virtually everyone can fit in 10-12hrs a week if they really want to? What are you basing that on and what assumptions are you making? ...And why 10-12hrs and not 15hrs or 20hrs? Is it because that's what you think he needs or because that's the magic number everyone can find? How accurate is your assessment?

When I started working with Mike Plumb in 2006, I went for a 1:08:xx Oly dist bike to a 1:02:xx in about 3 months

It's a loaded question because people who don't formally train do lots of different things.

The worst case is the guy/gal who rides 7 hrs a week (to keep the number in your example) but just goes out on B-group rides all the time to get 7 hours.

Then you get folks who only ever do A-group rides (more a race-sim than a paceline) who are strong.

Best I can give you is personal testimony: I was gaining about 20w/year and losing not much weight when I started. That's pretty normal for going from "non-rider" to "riding a bike". I did easier group rides, some solo rides with a few "efforts". Now that I do plans, I'm gaining more in the range of 40w/year and losing weight about 5lb in 2 months.

So, if you extrapolate that out over 3 years......if you take my real-world starting point of only about 200w and 181lbs......that's the difference between barely a 3.3w/kg by year 3 and a 4.5w/kg or higher by actually training. That's literally 35% faster going uphill. That's pretty much 40min faster up Mt. Mitchell.

I'd say there will always be exceptions that defy physiology, training theory, and even rudimentary logic.

The best designed plan followed half assed isn't as good as a half ass plan followed religiously

I also give you this: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=6545049#p6545049

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