So I have to admit, I'm a relative new comer to the triathlon game but have been watching intensely for the last few years. After watching Frodeno look in total control this weekend and basically dominate this race from wire to wire, he still finished with an 8:14ish. I understand conditions vary from year to year and it's possible Fordo didn't have to push the bike like he could have, but how damn impressive was Crowie's 8:03ish record!!!! I mean, I watched Frodo run a real strong 2:52 and Andy run a pretty darn smooth 2:50 but in 2011 Crowie not only posts a 51 swim and a 4:24 Bike but he just hammered home a 2:44 marathon!!! Wish I could have caught that one on Ironman live.. Even the NBC highlight show does not do it justice in my opinion. That was a down right scary performance!!!!
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Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [Phoenixrising]
[ In reply to ]
There was a lot of talk in 2011 that the run course turnaround in the Energy Lab was incorrectly marked resulting in the run course being half a mile short.
Still a very impressive time.
Still a very impressive time.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [RobAllen]
[ In reply to ]
RobAllen wrote:
There was a lot of talk in 2011 that the run course turnaround in the Energy Lab was incorrectly marked resulting in the run course being half a mile short. Still a very impressive time.
Rob, I think you got the year wrong. There was no debate in 2011 about the run course length. I THINK it was as recently as 2014. 2011 was also the Chrissy vs Rinny battle year. 2011 was a fairly fast year for the pros (not so much the age groupers for whom the wind picked up). I remember Faris saying that the wind was not strong enough to get rid of the smaller guys like Crowie on the bike who can run fast. That performance and IM Melbourne 2012 (5 months later) when Crowie-Cam Brown-Van Lierde-Llanos ran ITU style were too amazing races by him. He needed to run 2:38 in Melbourne to beat the other guys and said he was never quite the same after those two races. That period was Crowie at the very top of his IM game.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
The best part of that performance, for me, was Crowie getting the last laugh at Macca who, IIRC, the day before said something like "Crowie will just never go sub 8:12" or something to that effect. Talk about put up or shut up!
Long Chile was a silly place.
Long Chile was a silly place.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Crowie is one bad MF'er plain and simple. I was kind of thinking Frodo would get close to the record time, but I think he'll settle into his formula and get comfortable. Not to say weather isn't the MAIN factor because I think it is.
8:03 come on man.
Perhaps Gomes can push Frodo to the record?
8:03 come on man.
Perhaps Gomes can push Frodo to the record?
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [RobAllen]
[ In reply to ]
RobAllen wrote:
There was a lot of talk in 2011 that the run course turnaround in the Energy Lab was incorrectly marked resulting in the run course being half a mile short. Still a very impressive time.
I can confirm from my Garmin files, that the turnaround in '09, '10 and '11 was 1/4 mile closer (1/2 mile total) than in '12 & '13. The turnaround on Ali'i was at the same spot all of those years.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
2011 was when the discussion about course length came up.
http://measure.infopop.cc/...9510622/m/4384092708
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=3594368#3594368
http://measure.infopop.cc/...9510622/m/4384092708
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=3594368#3594368
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
devashish_paul wrote:
RobAllen wrote:
There was a lot of talk in 2011 that the run course turnaround in the Energy Lab was incorrectly marked resulting in the run course being half a mile short. Still a very impressive time.
There was no debate in 2011 about the run course length. 2011 was also the Chrissy vs Rinny battle year.
No - the course was short in 2011. See the thread which has been linked to above and see also ANY strava file for the run that year.
It was the year of strange run times - Chrissy 2.52, Rinny 2.52, Caitlin Snow 2.53, Crowie's fastest ever 2.44. It's because the course was ~600m short
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [ErickBar]
[ In reply to ]
ErickBar wrote:
Crowie is one bad MF'er plain and simple. I was kind of thinking Frodo would get close to the record time, but I think he'll settle into his formula and get comfortable. Not to say weather isn't the MAIN factor because I think it is. 8:03 come on man.
Perhaps Gomes can push Frodo to the record?
Frodo didn't need much pushing at Frankfurt this year to break the record on what was, historically, one of the hottest days ever in that city. Smashed Kienle's bike course record by 4 minutes just because he could... and was faster than the overall IM record pace until about 30km into the run, when the 40c heat finally slowed him down.
I reckon he just needs a float day at Kona to go under the record - and potentially a sub-8? If the swim is a typical 48-49ish, and if Kienle swims well and joins the front group early, they stand a good chance.
ZONE3 - We Last Longer
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [Aidan]
[ In reply to ]
Aidan wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
RobAllen wrote:
There was a lot of talk in 2011 that the run course turnaround in the Energy Lab was incorrectly marked resulting in the run course being half a mile short. Still a very impressive time.
There was no debate in 2011 about the run course length. 2011 was also the Chrissy vs Rinny battle year.
No - the course was short in 2011. See the thread which has been linked to above and see also ANY strava file for the run that year.
It was the year of strange run times - Chrissy 2.52, Rinny 2.52, Caitlin Snow 2.53, Crowie's fastest ever 2.44. It's because the course was ~600m short
OK, if you guys say it was short in 2011 , but in 2007 when Macca ran 2:42, Crowie ran 2:45. I assume 2007 was a correct run course?
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [Aidan]
[ In reply to ]
Aidan wrote:
No - the course was short in 2011. See the thread which has been linked to above and see also ANY strava file for the run that year. It was the year of strange run times - Chrissy 2.52, Rinny 2.52, Caitlin Snow 2.53, Crowie's fastest ever 2.44. It's because the course was ~600m short
How the f**k can they not get the course right at the World Championships? So bush league. Can you imagine a major marathon or the Olympics putting a turnaround in the wrong location?
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kny]
[ In reply to ]
Not just the World Championships. How, in this day of GPS, can any course be short or long? I recall two Malibu Triathlons (a race held at the same venue for years) one with the wrong run turnaround and another with an extra long swim.
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http://www.anaerobiczone.com
Bicycle Protection Indoors & Out
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kny]
[ In reply to ]
kny wrote:
Aidan wrote:
No - the course was short in 2011. See the thread which has been linked to above and see also ANY strava file for the run that year. It was the year of strange run times - Chrissy 2.52, Rinny 2.52, Caitlin Snow 2.53, Crowie's fastest ever 2.44. It's because the course was ~600m short
How the f**k can they not get the course right at the World Championships? So bush league. Can you imagine a major marathon or the Olympics putting a turnaround in the wrong location?
It is probably pretty easy if you do not care much.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [chaparral]
[ In reply to ]
I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that someone simply screwed up. But, even so, for a race of that stature and with all of its years of history, there really is no excuse for not getting the turnaround in the right location. I'd be curious how the mile markers were laid out. Was there a single mile that was 600m off? Did the finish line just appear at 25.9 miles?
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kny]
[ In reply to ]
I've never been there, but I guessing that the Finish Line in Kona is a permanent marker on the road [like in Boston], and a segment somewhere up the road was short
I could be wrong
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
I could be wrong
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [RandMart]
[ In reply to ]
Yes, a turnaround was in the wrong place. The finish line is fixed, of course. What I'm wondering is whether everyone hit mile 17 and thought "wow, I just did a 4:45 mile, clearly that mile was short" or whether the mile markers were based around the wrong turnaround in which case the race just ended before they hit mile 26, in which case whoever was putting out the mile markers had to know something was amiss.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kny]
[ In reply to ]
I'll be honest, I was there in 2011 - I have no recollection of how the mile markers were laid out.
I do remember thinking that the turn around seemed early compared to 2007. I also remember thinking in 2012 that the turn around seemed further out than 2011. I'm pretty sure 2014 had the same turn point as 2012.
I do remember thinking that the turn around seemed early compared to 2007. I also remember thinking in 2012 that the turn around seemed further out than 2011. I'm pretty sure 2014 had the same turn point as 2012.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kny]
[ In reply to ]
I'm the poster who did the analysis in 2011 showing it was short. I've rethought a few things, but still am convinced the course was short in 2011. Strava flyby analysis should convince any skeptics.
Strangely, in 2011, the USATF database with the official course maps only had the 2003 map available, which was when the run started behind the King Kam because the pier was unavailable. The course was recertified in 2007 with the start line at the base of the pier.
http://www.usatf.org/...?courseID=HI07011TLB
The 2007 map is derivative of the 2003 map. The official measurer determined that the pier start was 87 meters shorter than the 2003 tennis court start.
The Ali'i turnaround as run in 2011 was where it should have been based on the 2007 map.
The Energy Lab turnaround was the source of the error.
As you can see in this 2011 Google Earth measurement with my GPS track showing the turnaround in the bottom right, we turned around well before the school on the left side of the photo:
When watching the streaming video this year, I saw that the turnaround was a little past the concrete strip in the road that's clearly visible in the photo where it should have also been in 2011.
Here's a Strava flyby showing a bunch of 2011 runs that all turn in the same location:
http://tinyurl.com/psyu2a9
Compare to this Strava flyby showing a bunch of 2015 runs and the different turnaround location:
http://tinyurl.com/o6avlgt
I looked at 2012 and the turnaround was at the same location as in 2015. I assume 2013 and 2014 were the same but didn't check.
The course was short in 2009 and 2010 based on Strava flyby locations.
I couldn't find any 2008 files on Strava, but this Garmin Connect file shows the turnarounds that year in the same location as 2009-2011:
https://connect.garmin.com/activity/1101953
Strangely, in 2011, the USATF database with the official course maps only had the 2003 map available, which was when the run started behind the King Kam because the pier was unavailable. The course was recertified in 2007 with the start line at the base of the pier.
http://www.usatf.org/...?courseID=HI07011TLB
The 2007 map is derivative of the 2003 map. The official measurer determined that the pier start was 87 meters shorter than the 2003 tennis court start.
The Ali'i turnaround as run in 2011 was where it should have been based on the 2007 map.
The Energy Lab turnaround was the source of the error.
As you can see in this 2011 Google Earth measurement with my GPS track showing the turnaround in the bottom right, we turned around well before the school on the left side of the photo:
When watching the streaming video this year, I saw that the turnaround was a little past the concrete strip in the road that's clearly visible in the photo where it should have also been in 2011.
Here's a Strava flyby showing a bunch of 2011 runs that all turn in the same location:
http://tinyurl.com/psyu2a9
Compare to this Strava flyby showing a bunch of 2015 runs and the different turnaround location:
http://tinyurl.com/o6avlgt
I looked at 2012 and the turnaround was at the same location as in 2015. I assume 2013 and 2014 were the same but didn't check.
The course was short in 2009 and 2010 based on Strava flyby locations.
I couldn't find any 2008 files on Strava, but this Garmin Connect file shows the turnarounds that year in the same location as 2009-2011:
https://connect.garmin.com/activity/1101953
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [sentania]
[ In reply to ]
sentania wrote:
I'll be honest, I was there in 2011 - I have no recollection of how the mile markers were laid out. I do remember thinking that the turn around seemed early compared to 2007. I also remember thinking in 2012 that the turn around seemed further out than 2011. I'm pretty sure 2014 had the same turn point as 2012.
In 2011, I think we hit mile 18 early, but I was totally out of it and can't be certain. I went back and looked at my GPS file and I had it set to autolap every mile, so that's not helpful as I didn't hit lap manually.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kcb203]
[ In reply to ]
So based on all the above info, we can roughly project Crowie's time to go from 2:44 to ??? Which is still totally insane!! The total pkge of a great Swimmer / Biker / Runner!!! Ala, Frodeno!!
No 1 or 2 trick pony here.. Maybe why Crowie picked Frodeno to win this thing multiple times.
Over / Under - 3 Kona wins???
I'm guessing over and have him at 4-5 wins here.
No 1 or 2 trick pony here.. Maybe why Crowie picked Frodeno to win this thing multiple times.
Over / Under - 3 Kona wins???
I'm guessing over and have him at 4-5 wins here.
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [Phoenixrising]
[ In reply to ]
Phoenixrising wrote:
So I have to admit, I'm a relative new comer to the triathlon game but have been watching intensely for the last few years. After watching Frodeno look in total control this weekend and basically dominate this race from wire to wire, he still finished with an 8:14ish. I understand conditions vary from year to year and it's possible Fordo didn't have to push the bike like he could have, but how damn impressive was Crowie's 8:03ish record!!!! I mean, I watched Frodo run a real strong 2:52 and Andy run a pretty darn smooth 2:50 but in 2011 Crowie not only posts a 51 swim and a 4:24 Bike but he just hammered home a 2:44 marathon!!! Wish I could have caught that one on Ironman live.. Even the NBC highlight show does not do it justice in my opinion. That was a down right scary performance!!!!How insane was Mark Allen's 8:07---22 years ago? Or Luc Van Lierde's 8:04 19 years ago?
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [kny]
[ In reply to ]
kny wrote:
How the f**k can they not get the course right at the World Championships? So bush league. Can you imagine a major marathon or the Olympics putting a turnaround in the wrong location?
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
devashish_paul wrote:
RobAllen wrote:
There was a lot of talk in 2011 that the run course turnaround in the Energy Lab was incorrectly marked resulting in the run course being half a mile short. Still a very impressive time.
Rob, I think you got the year wrong. There was no debate in 2011 about the run course length. I THINK it was as recently as 2014. 2011 was also the Chrissy vs Rinny battle year. 2011 was a fairly fast year for the pros (not so much the age groupers for whom the wind picked up). I remember Faris saying that the wind was not strong enough to get rid of the smaller guys like Crowie on the bike who can run fast. That performance and IM Melbourne 2012 (5 months later) when Crowie-Cam Brown-Van Lierde-Llanos ran ITU style were too amazing races by him. He needed to run 2:38 in Melbourne to beat the other guys and said he was never quite the same after those two races. That period was Crowie at the very top of his IM game.
This year was similar in a way. Wind wasn't strong enough for the cyclists to really gap the runners. At least it didn't seem that windy to me. But the heat favored very strong runners. A lot of guys running within 10' of their qualifying races. I was 20' slower. That's my take.
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Re: How insane was Crowie's 8:03!!!!! [Phoenixrising]
[ In reply to ]
Phoenixrising wrote:
So based on all the above info, we can roughly project Crowie's time to go from 2:44 to ??? Which is still totally insane!! The total pkge of a great Swimmer / Biker / Runner!!! Ala, Frodeno!! No 1 or 2 trick pony here.. Maybe why Crowie picked Frodeno to win this thing multiple times.
Over / Under - 3 Kona wins???
I'm guessing over and have him at 4-5 wins here.
Why not? After all nothing bad can happen to an athlete over a 4-5 year period. Safe bet to project out a half a decade based on one performance. I am sure that the Seahawks will win their third straight Superbowl this year and their fourth straight next year.
LOL!! true enough, anything is possible. It was meant to be a bit of fun and for everyone to have a guess. I'm good, but I can't predict the future either. Just guessing :)
So, if someone gave you 100,000 and said you HAD to bet the over under with it, what would you chose?
So, if someone gave you 100,000 and said you HAD to bet the over under with it, what would you chose?