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How hard do you work in your swim sessions?
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I always have the sneaky suspicion I am taking it too easy in my swim sessions. I swim 2 or 3 times a week with a very good masters group in a LCM pool, 1h30min each session. Unless we're doing sprints (50m or 100m), or 100s on a tight turnover, I always feel like I am cruising somewhat. I'd say that in the sprints my RPE is high (17+), but for everything else it feels pretty mid-range (11ish).

How "hard" do you folks usually work in your sessions? Granted every different session will have different results, but in general... say you were doing 10x200m or 5x400m. I usually finish the set feeling good, not too tired, and my pace is usually consistent (unless I took too agressive a turnover time). I don't feel like I'm always working that hard. If I do work hard, I tend to fatigue very easily. Maybe I only have two speeds? and need to work on developing that mid-distance speed?

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For those of you new to RPE:
6 No exertion at all
7 Extremely light
8
9 Very light - (easy walking slowly at a comfortable pace)
10
11 Light
12
13 Somewhat hard (It is quite an effort; you feel tired but can continue)
14
15 Hard (heavy)
16
17 Very hard (very strenuous, and you are very fatigued)
18
19 Extremely hard (You can not continue for long at this pace)
20 Maximal exertion
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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I kinda suck at swimming, so I don't know if any swimming that I do gets down in the 11 range based on that RPE scale (most swimming is at least a little hard for me in a RPE sense.)

I guess a good question might be how much does your speed improve as you increase your RPE? If it is kinda linear then it sounds like you need to work on the mid-distance speed, which is a conditioning issue. If you can try a lot harder but not get a lot faster then it is probably your technique that blows up at that kind of effort. This is a little bit of my issue. I can fake my way fast through 50-100 yds, but maintaining my form for long distances is hard. I can beat my wife in a sprint based on power, but once we get to multiple repeats or a little bit of distance she can crush me. She just works a little harder while my arms stop working right.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Aren't you training for your first IM, andypants? If so, what does mid-distance speed have to do with anything? Unless you think 2.4 miles is mid-distance, that is. I rarely swim more than couple of seconds per hundred faster than my IM swim pace--I just don't see what good it would do if your goal is to be able to swim 2.4 in the most efficient and relaxed manner possible (which is what I think your goal ought to be in an IM). I'd put my RPE around 11-12 for most of my swim sessions, and I ain't interested in working any harder than that.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [140.6chick] [ In reply to ]
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to be able to swim 3.km fast you have to be able to swim fast.



when i was just a swimmer and my swimming was at its peak id be shattered after training. swim training is and should be a fair bit more intense than run or cycling. you can afford to do this since there are no body weight support issues. my shoulders would be constantly a lil sore but 35secs/50m pace was a breeze for anything up to 400m.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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It depends. But if I had to generalize:

If you don't train to swim fast, you won't be able to swim faster....(at any distance).

The intensity of workouts should vary. Depending on training cycle (you have a program or plan, right?), or other scheduled workouts.

For me this translates to easy swims on the days when I ride or run hard (not happening very often). Medium hard swims if you have an somewhat "easy" day in the other disciplines (most often). However once a week I try to get a fast and relatively hard swim workout that also has some distance and makes me push myself a bit (higher turnover, short rest).

I have improved significantly by swimming harder workouts with a relative high turnover (I was a "glider" in my early days (didn't make me any faster). Somebody said: "Swim like the swimmers; Run like the runners and Ride like the cyclists"?

There is some truth to it.... I am sure some "pro"-coaches on this forum will ROFL right now....



adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [adrialin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I have improved significantly by swimming harder workouts with a relative high turnover (I was a "glider" in my early days (didn't make me any faster). Somebody said: "Swim like the swimmers; Run like the runners and Ride like the cyclists"?

There is some truth to it.... I am sure some "pro"-coaches on this forum will ROFL right now....


This is often said, but I reckon there are key differences in combining the three sports the way we do. Not many marathon runners would run the way many coaches recommend you to if training for IM - there are lots of other examples.

I think we need to be careful when we simply copy what the single sporters do. This is not to say we ignore what they do, not at all. We just need to check its relevance for us and our athletic problems.


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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swimming in a triathlon is a single sport. it isnt affected by the other sports, except for running wiping off some of that top end kick power and maybe some upper body strength as well (well thats my excuse).



the faster you can swim, the more energy you can conserve during the swim by correctly pacing yourself.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [140.6chick] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly am. That being said, I want to get the most out of my coached sessions, so I wonder if I'm dogging it or not. As for long distances, when I start my long cruise sessions and open water swims later this year, I'll worry about that then. Endurance is not my problem. I'm usually a MOP swim splitter (which I'm OK with), although I tend to be more top 1/3rd for Sprint distances. Again, just trying to get a feel for how hard people work in the pool when doing a session that is not the long cruise/TT type session...
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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i mostly swim moderately. but the couple times i did swim hard i knew b/c once following the fast guys in masters i could feel it in my abs maybe the same as if youd done a thousand sit ups and i thought so this is how those swimmers get their 6 packs. also, if you are extremely motivated its possible to swim until your lungs burn -same as if you are running. i am a lazy swimmer but near the end of your sets you can always sprint the last few laps even if youre fatigued and not have to worry about not making intervals later. if it was hard you can feel all the blood in your face turn you red like a lobster. "you have to swim fast to swim fast"
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with that, but for a lot of us faster swimming will entail using more energy.

Also, swimming's longest pool event is the 1500 - whereas most tris start at that distance (aside from sprints), and there are no lanes, it's in the open water, you can draft like crazy and people hit you!

I realise I may be in a minority here, but it seems that a lot of squad training isn't that targetted at our sport. I think Gordo and his advocacy for 2k TTs is designed to address this and is, perhaps, a nod in this direction.

We all know that the best pool swimmers are also, often, the best tri swimmers. The skills and fitness of one transfer well to the other.

But for MOP/BOPrs I am not sure that is true. As a poor swimmer, I think I have wasted a lot of time doing hard 25s with big rest, for example, where for me more benefit would accrue from technique and steady swimming. Which is what I try to do now.

Interesting debate, though.


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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Good points. I have worked hard since Sept with these coaches and dropped my stroke count from a scary 60 (7 months post-partum, mind you!) to a more reasonable 36-40 per 50 (LCM). My times have improved. That being said, I realize the sets are not geared towards triathletes who are doing anything more than a sprint (really), but any swimming improvement in efficiency/economy via technique improvement has got to help. We're clocking 4000m per session, so it's not like we're totally dogging it... like I said I'm not too worried about the endurance side of the equation at this point.

Well, I'll try to put a bit of extra oopmh in my swim tomorrow morning, see if I puke or what ;-)
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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i honestly don't think training for a 3.8km swim is THAT different from training for 400m or 1500m, maybe even 200m events. all of the swimmers racing these distances have pretty good endurance. fast 25s are tri specific in that many people sprint the beginning of the swim (to my displeasure).

pool swimmers are very efficient as opposed to most triathletes. i am sure that pieter van den hoogenband could easily beat jan sibberson in an ironman swim. grant hackett would pulverise him.

swimming is perfect for interval training. if you can go faster, you are most definitely going to improve yr swimming. that speed WILL translate over to a 3.8km swim, believe me. this is because swimming is so dependent on technique, if your technique allows you to go fast, you are going to go faster at longer distances.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, in swimming coaching I see a LOT of what I used to see in boxing coaching.

The old 'we've always done it this way, why would we change it, harden up!'

There are a lot of sacred cows in swim coaching/training, and a fair bit of defensiveness when people from outside without 100,000ks in the pool question methods.

I will get jumped on for saying this, but that is what I think.


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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The point about pool swimming not translating to triathlon swimming is a good one, but I think I disagree with it on one count. I am a swimmer and I've therefore never done a triathlon as a non-swimmer. But what always stands out as obvious to me is that that non-swimmers lack efficient form, not sufficient swimming conditioning. I invite other readers to disagree with me here and I'm interested to hear what others think, but I feel quite confident saying that time put in at the pool with a decent coach, even with a group that is not training for a 2.4 mile swim, is worth it because of the improvement in stroke form and efficiency.

Now to your original question: I'm a lazy bum sometimes and other times, especially when my little brother happens to be next to me (we're lucky enough to live close for a year, and he beat me at the only triathlon we did together. the punk runs 4:35 miles.), I work my butt off, often to the point of nausea.

AndyPants wrote: "Well, I'll try to put a bit of extra oopmh in my swim tomorrow morning, see if I puke or what". Don't put in a little extra oomph tomorrow, put in a lot. try to keep up with the fastest guys in the pool. Swimming with the sharks can do a lot for you. Don't worry about puking; it doesn't happen that often in the pool and you can ease off if you feel it coming up.

good luck, Mr. Pants.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [nilloc] [ In reply to ]
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It's Ms. Pants, and thanks, I will try to keep up with the sharks... what the hey, if I puke I puke, that's what chlorine is for, right? (no wait, it was for the pustule.. shudder shudder).
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [nilloc] [ In reply to ]
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it on one count. I am a swimmer and I've therefore never done a triathlon as a non-swimmer. But what always stands out as obvious to me is that that non-swimmers lack efficient form, not sufficient swimming conditioning. I invite other readers to disagree with me here and I'm interested to hear what others think, but I feel quite confident saying that time put in at the pool with a decent coach, even with a group that is not training for a 2.4 mile swim, is worth it because of the improvement in stroke form and efficiency.

Totally agree with you, except that not all squads pay attention to form. Some have technique days, most do drills, but I found after a year of masters making s-l-o-w improvement, that some half hour coaching sessions, one on one, worked wonders on technique, and made me faster. Not fast, just faster.

Now I can get benefit out of the masters because I am actually quick enough to do the whole f**** workout, for a start! I can make the times and get the mileage.

On this point, we did a 1500 aerobic swim the other day - not a TT, just swim the distance, try to stay relaxed, steady, even, good economy. It was fantastic for me. Steady easy swimming, just the way you do for biking/running a lot of the time. It is peculiar to me that swimming orthodoxy has us doing so little of this.


kiwipat

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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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I have thought about having some 1-on-1 swim coaching, to really clean up my technique. You found a measurable improvement, yes? How many sessions did you do? Just curious.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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it is because you dont need to do that to become a good long distance swimmer kiwipat.

when my squad was doing 10 km sessions the longest single interval we would do would be 1200m and that was the warmup.

and this squad had perhaps the best (for its size) middle,long distance team for age group swimmers (ie under 18)



pity i did crap with em. hah.



also there is another point about technique, the longer you swim the more your technique will go to crap.
Last edited by: fulla: Feb 9, 05 20:14
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, Ms. Pants. I took a guess at Andy being a male, but was obviously wrong.

I don't know where you live or what your situation is, but if you have swimmer friends you might be able to pick up a lot from them. I guess it's different with a Masters group, but I just swim at a university pool during the open swim hours and end up coaching people (casually) occasionally. If you have friend who has a lot of experience swimming competitively, ask her/him if you can work out together once a week. I know I'd do this with a friend, maybe just because I like people to be able to enjoy being healthy. You don't have to do the whole workout together and you might even do very different things, but having somebody who knows her business can be a cheap way to pick up some good technique. My wife used to be scared of swimming, but was burning out on running, so she asked me if she could tag along at the pool. She swam very poorly, so she decided to take a beginning swimming class just to have some kind of start. Since then, we've swum together 2 or 3 times a week, never doing the same workout, but with me occasionally paying close attention to her form and letting her know what she can do to improve it. She doesn't look like a competitive swimmer, but she swims amazingly well and smoothly for somebody who has only been swimming for a year.

I guess I should include a disclaimer that the information is only as reliable as its source; find somebody who has really studied swimming form.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Hi folks! Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm coming from a swimming background and a total triathlon neophite, so caveat emptor.

I'm sure I don't need to convince anyone here that masters teams often bring a lot of swim-specific coaching baggage to the pool. Back during my long lost 100km weeks we did a lot of what I would call junk yardage. Distance swimmers were stuck doing half the practice with things like 5x1000, decend by 200. I would say that this was in the 13 range on Andy's RPE scale (or interval+5 if that means anything to anyone). This junk yardage was all in the name of sport-specific endurance. All of these swimmers had excellent technique, some better than others.

Two major differences for most triathletes:
1) Luckly for all of us, there are far more efficent sports for general cardiovascular conditioning than swimming. Like cycling, or better still, running. Lots of reasons for this, but thats a whole other post. But if you're doing lots in these other sports, chances are you don't need as much of the 'junk' that the rest of us swimmers put up with. Or at least you'd be doing it for different reasons.

2) Most triathletes don't have competetive swimming backgrounds, and might benefit from better swim technique. Likely this is the limiter in performance more than swim-specific fitness. Most masters teams don't focus enough on stroke technique coaching. This is really an issue of economy - given the number of people in the pool there just isn't enough time in most masters workouts for that kind of one-on-one coaching. Get some. Get one of your ex-swimmer team buddies from the torpedo lane to give you pointers before/after. Especially if they're cute. Or, all things being equal, pick the one with a masters in kinestheiology (we can all hope!).

So, given that, what intensity should your swim workout be? Like training in any of the diciplines, keep focused on what outcomes you want to achieve. Think about each workout and how it gets you there. Talk to your coach about which days are slated for VO2 max, which are threshold training, recovery, sprint, what not. Most teams are changing these up on a daily and weekly cycle. Make sure you show up on the days which will benefit you most. Ideally you're doing range of activites that span a range of RPE numbers.

One caveat. Technique is very very speed dependent. You recruit different muscles and use slightly different body position at different speeds. One of the reasons we train with things like zoomers (ie, fins) and paddles is to maintain higher paces with less effort (as well as put those muscles under higher/lower load). If you don't at least push your race pace in practice, you'll never build the techique and strength required for developing your most efficient stroke. So when you're picking your weekly workout targets, dont skip the anaerobic day at the pool just because you think you don't see how it applies to a 3.8km swim. Thats like never running hills/intervals or staying away from the big ring on your bike.

At the end of the day, even if none of this is particularly relevant for you, heres a rule of thumb. First, listen to the coach; they usually have an effort target in mind. Baring that, at least for the main set, swim as fast as you can while maintaining perfect technique (hah! I wish I could) for the whole set. The whole set - this does not mean RPE 17. Don't worry about the next set/drill; if we're doing things right that's likely programmed as mini-recovery. You'll get faster of course. At some point you'll forget how to swim slow (I kid you not; ask a college swimmer to a 45 sec SCY length with good form - they sink).

If folks are interested in learning more, I offer up the swimming bible: Swimming Even Faster by Ernest Maglischo. Good sections on both training and stroke technique. We can likely discard the butterfly technique and flip turns, but otherwise largely applicable. Especially the sections on designing workouts and training effort.

Lastly, at the risk of breaking all orthodoxy (flame retardant gloves on!), I'm going to say that a heavy diet of long-slow-distance training for swimming does not really work for most triathete swimmers. Unlike cycling, you can't just change gears and keep the same cadence! Water has one resistance and you gotta have the speed to keep your form. Plus there's that thing about efficiency of swimming for cardio fitness. Our goal with swim training (most of us, anyway) is improving stroke efficiency primarily, sport-specific endurance secondly. Get most of yer LSD on the bike and run. In the interest of dialogue, I'd like to hear from other folks about results from LSD workouts for swimming, and where they're comming from in terms of swimming background.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I have thought about having some 1-on-1 swim coaching, to really clean up my technique. You found a measurable improvement, yes? How many sessions did you do? Just curious.[/reply]

I did a session a week for 12 weeks in my pre season. Half hour lessons, one on one, $30 per session. Hilarious, really, I did my first length of 25, my guy stops me, and he pulls my stroke apart. One freakin' length and he tells me all that is wrong with it, and what we and I are going to do to fix it. It has worked wonders, and six months later I am still working on it. In a way I am looking forward to my season being over (April) so I can go back and do 4 mths of one per week lessons. My off season goal is to swim 6* per week, and try to make some big gains. 3 squads, two solo techniques and one lesson. My GF will kill me for the chlorine stink, but it has to be done!


kiwipat

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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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I currently swim 3-4 times a week and typically 1-2 of the workouts include a 1500-2000 yard set in Z4 or roughly at 90% effort. Short rest, intervals. Another day consists of longer stuff done fairly easy, 4th day if there is easy 1-2k after a run or ride.

My recommendations to athletes depend on the exp/time available/goals/... of the athlete.

Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
Triangle Open Water Swim Series | Old School Aquathon Series
Powerstroke® Freestyle Technique DVD
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [martyg] [ In reply to ]
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I listened to a Peter Reid interview on endurance radio if I recall correctly, and he mentioned that he ALWAYS swims in the back of the lane until his race is approaching and he needs to sharpen his speed in which he then moves up. He said his teammates joke on him, however, when he swims at IM, he is always in the lead pack and the others are in the 2nd pack.

--
Interview with Gordo Byrn
Interview with Peter Reid
Interview with Tim & Nicole Deboom
Interview with Clas Bjorling
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [cervelodude] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I listened to a Peter Reid interview on endurance radio if I recall correctly, and he mentioned that he ALWAYS swims in the back of the lane until his race is approaching and he needs to sharpen his speed in which he then moves up. He said his teammates joke on him, however, when he swims at IM, he is always in the lead pack and the others are in the 2nd pack.[/reply]

Yeah, but the back of WHICH lane is Reid swimming? He still might be going at it with a pretty fast group. He just doesn't have to deal with the added pressure of holding the lead pace.

The fastest guy on my Masters team almost always goes second until close to meets.
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Re: How hard do you work in your swim sessions? [SwimGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks SwimGuy, I'll check the book out.

I believe in doing all four strokes, I think it maskes me a better swimmer all around. Once I became more proficient at the backstroke, I found it easier to be more aware of body position, which has helped my free. Ditto working on fly, my kicks off the wall are more powerful and my core is stronger.

I will pester some of my ex-competitive swimmer friends, maybe check out private lessons.
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