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Edit: winter-run-focus
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Hi!
I've been biking for around 10 years, but only took up tri 2 years ago. The run is my worst leg (surprise!), and I'd really like to put in some work on the run this winter. However, I am looking to get other peoples experience regarding how fast bike-fitness is lost when not focusing on bike / how to maintain bike-fitness with minimum time on the bike during winter.

Just to give some background - I'm around 175-178 lbs, and hover around 300 - 320w FTP. This usually puts me at the front end of the field off the bike, so I need to "hang on" for the run. The longer the run - the harder for me. My PR's (in tris) are 19:2x 5k, 42:1x Oly, 1:35 HIM and 3:57 IM (only 1 attempt on this one). I'd like to put in some serious work on my run to get more competitive on the last part. I'm gonna follow a BarryP-like plan, trying to run 5-6 days a week. Ill be realle carefull upping my milage from currently 30-35k/week to 50-60 (depending on how this feels). Sound reasonable? Long term goals is to be able to run sub 1:30 in HIM and sub 3:30 for IM.

My worry is mostly the bike - I dont wanna enter next seasong without any punch on the bike. I have scheduled 1 weekly 2x20 session. Other than that, I will commute to and from work (approx 45 min 5 days a week). If I keep the bike at this - any best guesses as to where my bike-fitness will be come march?

*** Edited topic to reflect updated topic of thread ***
Last edited by: lovegoat: Oct 21, 15 0:52
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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You haven't stated how much (if any) cycling you're going to do over the winter. I certainly wouldn't recommend dropping to zero - some easy riding can keep the cycling muscles ticking over and wouldn't be counter productive to a run focus.

Something like a 2x20 every two weeks would really reduce loss of bike fitness, and shouldn't have a big impact on your running progression.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I dropped my cycling altogether last marathon season. I ran a 2:55 marathon, recovered, and got back into tri training. I expected to see some loss in cycling fitness but I was wrong. My FTP test showed no loss over the winter.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience, winter bike training has never made any difference. I've had some winter where I tried to maintain some level of biking, and other where I didn't touch the bike for two months. I can't say that I've noticed any difference come April/May.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [Liaman] [ In reply to ]
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Liaman wrote:
You haven't stated how much (if any) cycling you're going to do over the winter. I certainly wouldn't recommend dropping to zero - some easy riding can keep the cycling muscles ticking over and wouldn't be counter productive to a run focus.

Something like a 2x20 every two weeks would really reduce loss of bike fitness, and shouldn't have a big impact on your running progression.


Hi - I probably wasnt quite clear on that. I plan on doing one 2x20 session every week. I just started doing these 2 weeks ago - I do them at around 95 % of FTP. Other then that, I ride 45min every day to/from work. This is mostly easy riding, but I do have 200m elevation gain every day so I still have to put a few watts down the pedals:) In total - this gives me around 5hrs on the bike every week ( 4 hrs quite easy and 1 hrs hard).
Last edited by: lovegoat: Oct 2, 15 4:28
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [gtstang02] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting :) Hope this applies to me as well! Since I started Tri I feel that i do get some "cross-over" benefits from running (it feels running helps my cycling alot more than cycling helps running!)
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I was typically fop for the bike leg and okay with the run. After I did my first IM (in November) I decided to try and go for a sub-3 marathon and spent the next 12 weeks purely running, nothing else at all. My 20 milers went from 7:40's down to 7:10's for pace. Unfortunately I got the flu the week of the marathon (in February) and ended up dropping out of the race after 5 miles at pace as I knew there was no way in hell I was recovered from the flu well enough to race. Sucked. :(

Anyhow, I then took a break and got ready for Boston (in April). After Boston, took a little break, got back in the pool some and got on my bike maybe three times. First time really on the bike in anger was in May as the bike leg in a relay at the Columbia tri. I was the fastest bike relay member and had the 26th fastest bike split for the event when you included the relay in the overall count (front door brag, I even beat all the woman pro bike splits). Bottom line? I had a huge base of riding over the years and spent those few months I just mentioned purely running 50 - 70 miles a week and it didn't seem to hurt my cycling one bit.

Do I know that I could have been better by mixing riding in? Yeah, of course. But I don't think that I lost much of any of my cycling ability by being run focused.

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
Last edited by: Daremo: Oct 2, 15 5:10
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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Daremo wrote:
I was typically fop for the bike leg and okay with the run. After I did my first IM (in November) I decided to try and go for a sub-3 marathon and spent the next 12 weeks purely running, nothing else at all. My 20 milers went from 7:40's down to 7:10's for pace. Unfortunately I got the flu the week of the marathon (in February) and ended up dropping out of the race after 5 miles at pace as I knew there was no way in hell I was recovered from the flu well enough to race. Sucked. :(

Anyhow, I then took a break and got ready for Boston (in April). After Boston, took a little break, got back in the pool some and got on my bike maybe three times. First time really on the bike in anger was in May as the bike leg in a relay at the Columbia tri. I was the fastest bike relay member and had the 26th fastest bike split for the event when you included the relay in the overall count (front door brag, I even beat all the woman pro bike splits). Bottom line? I had a huge base of riding over the years and spent those few months I just mentioned purely running 50 - 70 miles a week and it didn't seem to hurt my cycling one bit.

Do I know that I could have been better by mixing riding in? Yeah, of course. But I don't think that I lost much of any of my cycling ability by being run focused.

Thanks for the insight! This is in line with what I've experienced from previous periods being off the bike due to illness - though these breaks have naturally been shorter than a full winter (mind you - full winter in my part of the world is oct - march:)). It feels that I have a "base-level" that I pretty quickly can get back to on the bike. This is probably just another side of the fact that improving takes longer and longer the better you get? I.e. getting to 95% of your potential comes quite easily, but the last 5 % you really have to work for! If so it really would make sense for me to focus my training-time to achieving 95%-potential in both running and biking, instead of leaving the run "hanging" and pushing for further marginal gains on the bike:=)
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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Cycling intensity kills run speed and high run volume kills cycling FTP. They mutually cannibalize each other. 2x20min will hinder your run progress if you are doing it at 90-100% FTP. It will directly eat into recovery for running, yet alone is not enough to maintain cycling fitness. Instead, do a few aerobic endurance rides per week, work it around running, stay at lower end of Z2 and enjoy. There will be some loss of FTP, 5-10%, but you will gain it all back in 8-10 weeks after you restart balanced plan.
Your commute alone is sufficient to maintain some cycling fitness, insert one 2hr ride on the weekend, very easy, after all your running for the week is over. That should do it.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
Cycling intensity kills run speed and high run volume kills cycling FTP. They mutually cannibalize each other. 2x20min will hinder your run progress if you are doing it at 90-100% FTP.

Anyone else have this experience? I certainly get the fact that the 2x20 will eat into recovery time, but I've always felt that recovery from run-training is not so much my aerocib-system in general- its more of loosing any calf/muscle-soreness. I dont feel that cycling at intensity has hindered this sort of recovery as much, but I appreciate some more insight into this.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
Cycling intensity kills run speed and high run volume kills cycling FTP. They mutually cannibalize each other. 2x20min will hinder your run progress if you are doing it at 90-100% FTP. It will directly eat into recovery for running, yet alone is not enough to maintain cycling fitness. Instead, do a few aerobic endurance rides per week, work it around running, stay at lower end of Z2 and enjoy. There will be some loss of FTP, 5-10%, but you will gain it all back in 8-10 weeks after you restart balanced plan.
Your commute alone is sufficient to maintain some cycling fitness, insert one 2hr ride on the weekend, very easy, after all your running for the week is over. That should do it.

Spot on.

This season I increased my running a little and really noticed how flat I was in a lot of cycling workouts no matter how I staggered my longer runs. In the end, I think I carried a lot of fitness from last year and a cycling focus this winter and didn't lose much. Maybe 3-5% FTP, but aerobic endurance is good which is all that counts for me. Really my power profile just flattened out more.


TrainingBible Coaching
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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Do your swim-run focus and just add in 15-20 min spin on the trainer as warmup before 4x runs per week. End each "warmup" with 6-10x30 second hard, 30 second easy. It will have zero distraction from the run focus, and you'll barely lose 5% (if that....I often see my FTP going up because of less overall hours in the winter and the run and swim average intensity being way higher than what I would do during my average biking hours.....which is not to be confused with my hard biking hours). You might gain from the cardio benefits from all that swim focus too especially if you avoid using a pull buoy and do a lot of kick sets too. Also as part of your run focus run hills on the treadmill on steep grades (build up to it)....nice crossover benefit to bike FTP.

At the end of the day, the most important part is cardio. If you can deliver blood to working muscles, you're most of the way there. Sport specificity is the final few percent. Cycling has so little technical component that its the easiest sport to return to and quickly ramp back. Swim and running, you can't really jump back into from "awesome cycling fitness"....easy to do the opposite direction.

Edit: Just to clarify, my FTP may go up in the winter, but my long ride average power would go down if I had to get in the aero for 180K since I don't do that type of specific training. You can't have it all.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 2, 15 6:00
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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From:


http://ylmsportscience.blogspot.com/2015/06/high-intensity-interval-training-every.html








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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I did a run focus for about 3-4 months a few years ago and only rode 1-2 times per week, easy. Cycling is my strength and my FTP is similar to yours and I lost very little during my focus. It came back within a few sessions.

I think your commuting will be enough to hang onto some fitness. If you're going to focus on running, focus on that and let your cycling go a bit. If you do too much on the bike to try to hang onto that fitness it might impact your run focus and you could end up in this middle ground where you're not getting maximum benefit from the run focus but you're also not doing enough to gain cycling fitness either.

It will come back quick enough, and if you make good gains in your running you'll be faster overall.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
From:


http://ylmsportscience.blogspot.com/2015/06/high-intensity-interval-training-every.html








The issue with that study is that it does not cover the recovery cost of that session when you are juggling another sport or two. Otherwise, I like studies and that one is validated, no arguments there.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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One vo2max session every other week, is very unlikely to introduce any issues or interfere with swim/bike training.

It's important to maintain sport specific HIT year round, regardless of focus, and if you want to reduce the focus on a given sport cut back on the volume of training to manage the fatigue
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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IME, you'll be just fine. I'm always amazed how quickly my threshold comes back after a period with low intensity. If it would help your running (or sanity), you could probably drop the 2x20 for a couple months without hurting bike fitness next year.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [gtstang02] [ In reply to ]
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gtstang02 wrote:
I dropped my cycling altogether last marathon season. I ran a 2:55 marathon, recovered, and got back into tri training. I expected to see some loss in cycling fitness but I was wrong. My FTP test showed no loss over the winter.

Did same thing. Initial 1-2 bike sessions were rusty, but it got back to proper level within a week. And it felt much better to spend less time on running...

Swimming, on the other hand... was very rusty. Very very rusty.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't ride my bike from the time I hopped off at Syracuse 70.3 in June until I began Ironman training in January. My FTP plummeted over 30%, but a lot of that was an artificial loss. I'd forgotten how to ride and hurt on a bike in all my time off it, and it came back quickly. The run focus block was the most significant thing I've done to improve in triathlon. I went from a 1:38:50 HIM run PB to running 1:24 at two HIM's this year, and a 3:55 IM run to 3:12 (although I'm a much better athlete now than when I did my first IM 2 years ago). I'm no coach, but I'd encourage anyone who wants to get faster that doesn't have a run background to spend some time with a run focus, and run with runners.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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You have a lot of great feedback already, but based on my experience, you will be fine. My bike power and run times are similar to yours and last year I did not bike once over a four month period (1 1/2 months off plus 2 1/2 months to focus solely on my run and swim) and my bike still improved quite a bit this year (by about 3%). (My training was relatively balanced starting in March).

I am considering a similar run block during this offseason. What is the BarryP running plan? Last year my run block was only about 30 miles a week, but, like you, I want to try 50 miles a week during the block this year.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I would fall somewhere in-between the other replies and in line with your thought process. If your bike fitness is solid and based off substantial volume, inclusive of intensity (e.g. 2 X 20 workouts) ramping running and cutting bike volume (maintaining intensity) is a good plan. Cannibalizing your run workouts with a weekly 2 X 20 is not something I believe would occur with some timing of your run mix program and the assumption that you coming down from solid bike volume/intensity.


I often gear up for a late spring marathon and cut back on my biking volume significantly, but maintain my weekly trainer intervals and some easy recovery rides. I hit all my historic markers for run fitness in preparation (about 8 weeks of work) and then start ramping back up the bike volume about 2 weeks after the marathon. Within the 3rd and 4th week I am hitting previous years markers for bike power on certain workouts and run fitness was sustained initially. One may argue that this could be due to my level of bike fitness is not maximized, but in the context of my VO2 and gains over years, it is an earned value.


I agree with Dev, that the long ride fitness/adaptation takes a little longer to come back.


Be aware that once you ramp back up the bike/swim the carry-over of the "new" run fitness will not be a 100%. This may take more than one year of a discipline specific work block to reap fully. This is not to discourage you more about expectations; if you have a substantial history in one of the disciplines and it is relatively strong, it will likely always be the most responsive and forgiving in terms of ramping up on short notice or relative maintenance over a lull. Do not get upset if you give back some of your new found run fitness when you are into a full tri program. You should have a gain, but there will likely be some regression. Accepting this as part of the overall package and not trying to replicate markers of the workouts in a run specific block while in-season tri training will be helpful.


Cheers!
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I took nearly a year off from cycling and came back into it no problem at all. Few rides, and I was able to do a century with 14k of climbing. I was expecting much worse. I feel like I lose running quicker than cycling though.
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [andrejs] [ In reply to ]
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Some really interesting thoughts on this thread. I had always thought that the rule of thumb was that bike "fitness" transferred to the run but not vice versa (ie a run focus would deplete bike fitness), so this thread has somewhat corrected that view.

Does the opposite hold true? I'm a strong cyclist like the OP, who has had a run focus over the last few winters with great results. I would like to have a go at smashing some early season TT PBs and getting some RR creds. Would an increase in bike focus really badly affect my running, if I kept up a couple of runs per week? Maybe an intervals session, a tempo, and a longer aerobic run per week?
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Re: How fast is bike fitness lost? (winter-run-focus) [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I dropped cycling pretty much completely for 6 months a couple of years back to focus on a marathon. Occasional cycle to work, and there were a couple of weeks where I had minor niggles which caused me to back off on the running and throw some bike training in, but nothing consistent and certainly a lot less than you're planning.

10 weeks after I did the marathon, I did a 100 mile sportive ride. I had about 8 weeks decent bike training in my legs at that point, having taken a week after the marathon to recover, and a week to taper. That was enough to get me pretty much back to my best cycling shape, at most I was a couple of percent off peak. Of the 3 sports, cycling speed always seems to come back the quickest.
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