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How far is a “LONG” run/ride
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To prep for 70.3 events, what should I work towards for my “long” workout? Either by time or distance. My expectation is a 2:45-3:00 ride and a sub-2:00 run.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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I race sprints and 70.3, but did many decently hard 4-5 hour weekend long rides with friends who were training for 140.6 in the summer when the weather was good. When the sun it out, it's fun to ride your bike.

I did a lot of trainer rides 3-3.5 hours this fall building into my 70.3, and tried to get my TSS and kj numbers for those long rides a good deal higher than the ride I was planning in my race, so that meant 3-3.5 hours was the right number for me.

My long runs were anywhere from 12-15 miles, but, more importantly in my mind, I was running 5x week and hitting 40-45 miles consistently for several weeks in my build.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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In my own experience, make your run easier by making your bike ride easier. Focus on the bike. Then, to answer your question, make sure you're doing at least a ten mile run to get ready. Ideally, you're doing 18-20 mile runs toward the end of your prep. In the end, just go complete the race...
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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4.5 hours
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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Not a coach, take as you will


Assuming you want to "Race" the 70.3, then we need to add in not just discussion about how long does the workout need to be but also about intensity. I can slog away for hours & hours at bottom of zone 2 but I won't get much faster (assuming I am not just starting out).

If you are in the final build toward race day (say 10 - 14 weeks away), I don't see any reason to do an 18-20 mile run in prep (unless of course you just like to run long). I can see a nice healthy dose of 12 - 16 mile workouts with some of the miles at a slight bit faster than open HM pace and a few workouts like 20-20-20 negative split after coming off the bike. Same idea on the bike. Up to 3 to 3.5 hours or so with a good 2+ hours at a bit better than race pace. A nice 30 - 30 - 30 negative split ride ending with last 30 minutes as hard as you can is a lot of fun too.

If you are in winter and are still months away, then for running, run often, run mostly slow and occasionally add in some strides. I think the 40 - 50 miles a week is pretty good. I like to do most of my runs that are a little more than an hour with 1 run per week a nice slow 40 minutes and 1 run a week building up to 2 hours, maybe a little more. Weekends are almost always double workouts too with both a run and a bike (not a brick). For the bike, ride a lot and do a good amount of workouts like 3 x 15 or 2x20 at 95% of ftp and some over/unders with a nice long steady state ride on the weekend say 3 hours with a lot of it at 80%. Do some run races in the offseason. I like to do 5K and 10K races to add in some "speed" workouts and break up the monotony

(I don't swim so have no idea on adding that to the mix)
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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To go from 3+ hours to 2:45 is all about being able to maintain a sufficiently aero position for the duration of your race. Ie, most people can do 20 mph on a flat course with 2.5-2.75 w/kg. So your riding should be all about figuring out how to stay in aero for the duration of the race. Do you need rides much longer than that? Probably not.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [CBJFan] [ In reply to ]
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This[/quote]
CBJFan wrote:
Not a coach, take as you will


Assuming you want to "Race" the 70.3, then we need to add in not just discussion about how long does the workout need to be but also about intensity. I can slog away for hours & hours at bottom of zone 2 but I won't get much faster (assuming I am not just starting out).

If you are in the final build toward race day (say 10 - 14 weeks away), I don't see any reason to do an 18-20 mile run in prep (unless of course you just like to run long). I can see a nice healthy dose of 12 - 16 mile workouts with some of the miles at a slight bit faster than open HM pace and a few workouts like 20-20-20 negative split after coming off the bike. Same idea on the bike. Up to 3 to 3.5 hours or so with a good 2+ hours at a bit better than race pace. A nice 30 - 30 - 30 negative split ride ending with last 30 minutes as hard as you can is a lot of fun too.

If you are in winter and are still months away, then for running, run often, run mostly slow and occasionally add in some strides. I think the 40 - 50 miles a week is pretty good. I like to do most of my runs that are a little more than an hour with 1 run per week a nice slow 40 minutes and 1 run a week building up to 2 hours, maybe a little more. Weekends are almost always double workouts too with both a run and a bike (not a brick). For the bike, ride a lot and do a good amount of workouts like 3 x 15 or 2x20 at 95% of ftp and some over/unders with a nice long steady state ride on the weekend say 3 hours with a lot of it at 80%. Do some run races in the offseason. I like to do 5K and 10K races to add in some "speed" workouts and break up the monotony

(I don't swim so have no idea on adding that to the mix)
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [SIMONI] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't train enough in my first two 70.3 attempts. I bonked the run on both and did a lot of walking. On my third attempt, I was ready. I believe you must train at well over the bike and run distances (56 miles and 13 miles) multiple times. In my peak month prior, I road 70 miles on Saturdays and ran 16.5 on Sundays. I did this over 4 consecutive weekends. I also threw in some 25 mile / 3-6 mile bricks for good measure. This got me over the top and I finally raced well in last attempt -
there was no bonking!

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Don_W] [ In reply to ]
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Don_W wrote:
I didn't train enough in my first two 70.3 attempts. I bonked the run on both and did a lot of walking. On my third attempt, I was ready. I believe you must train at well over the bike and run distances (56 miles and 13 miles) multiple times. In my peak month prior, I road 70 miles on Saturdays and ran 16.5 on Sundays. I did this over 4 consecutive weekends. I also threw in some 25 mile / 3-6 mile bricks for good measure. This got me over the top and I finally raced well in last attempt -
there was no bonking!

What were the weekly volumes for each discipline during those 4 weeks?
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Don_W] [ In reply to ]
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As someone up above mentioned, it's not just distance, it's distance and intensity.

What has worked for me is going at race intensity for up to 50 miles on the bike followed by 5-6 miles on the run. I raced very well off of that. Keep in mind for the 2 months prior I was working up to those distances at race intensity.

There is still obviously a time and place for longer standalone rides/runs at less than race effort, but I think this approach for the brick is very beneficial.

Strava I Instagram
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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I just turned 53. I had shoulder surgery last Dec. and couldn't ride a bike until March. I ran, some (starting sometime in January).....and started swimming 3/22 and biking sometime around the first of the month. I'm pretty sure my longest run in prep for Choo (in May) was 14 mi. My long rides were probably 60-70 miles.....and those were not very numerous. I'm also a bigger guy (193#). My Choo time was 5:35:xx.

My previous two races were 70.3's also......each around 6 hours.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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What were the weekly volumes for each discipline during those 4 weeks?[/quote]


About 10 hours a week. I don't think I ever went over 12 hours.

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Last edited by: Don_W: Nov 14, 17 6:10
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with most others in that long ride is >3 hrs (or 60 mi) and long run is >1 hr 45 min (or 14 mi). But as has been mentioned several times, proper intensity during those rides/runs is critical.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be inclined to do longer rides than that. You really don't want the race distance or duration on the bike to be anywhere near your limit as starting the run in good shape is rather important. Also, unlike running, long cycles don't tend to batter your body unless you really overdo it on intensity. Most of my higher intensity training rides are in the 60-90 minute range. Over winter most of my longer rides will be 2-2.5hrs (one per week). However, early in spring I'll start increasing distance for the long rides and I expect to be doing 3.5-4hrs on a fairly regular basis prior to doing any mid distance races. On the bike, you want to be able to produce the power and you want to be able to sustain it in comfort. My training is a combination of rides shorter than my races but with a higher intensity and rides longer than my races but with a lower intensity. The race is where it comes together. Training is not necessarily best done by performing race simulations.

I spent the first half of this year training for a very tough, mountainous sportive in the Alps, the Marmotte Des Alpes. I was on my road bike for any outdoor rides but also did sweetspot/threshold/VO2max intensity trainer sessions on the Tri bike to supplement it. I spent most of my long rides climbing long steep hills and staying on the bike for 4-5hrs. My endurance on the bike ended up better than it's ever been. After the Marmotte, I had 6 weeks to prepare for a flat 70.3 which had originally been my A race until it was usurped by the Marmotte. When I got on the tri-bike outside on flat roads I was stunned by how fast I'd gotten. I was very significantly faster than before. Riding hills really does seem to work wonders for bike performance, in my case anyway.

I did a handful of long rides on the tri bike to ensure I was still comfortable in the aero position and the turbo sessions seemed to have left me ready to happily ride the tri-bike. In the race I massively outperformed my predicted bike time and still arrived at the run in good shape. I'd undertrained for the run due to my bike focus until shortly before the race but my comfort on the bike meant I was still able to do a decent (for me!) run. I had built hastily from almost zero running up to doing just a couple of 15km long runs before the 70.3. Next year I plan to back off a little on the bike, from 4-5hr long rides to probably 3.5-4hrs. That'll free up some time for more running. I plan to run based somewhat on the BarryP plan. 5 or 6 runs a week, with these peaking somewhere around 55km per week. That would mean I would do three 5.5km short runs per week, two 11km runs per week and one 16.5km run per week. Depending on how things go I might increase that to 6km, 12km and 18km. I think you want to be very comfortable on the bike and providing you can find the time, long, medium intensity, rides are easy to accommodate in your training. Long runs are more problematic, at least for me, because they need much more recovery.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [aclawed strandi] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure what the goal of the question is. If you want a faster bike leg, you'll have to train at an intensity quite a bit above that power AND you might do well to do endurance rides and steady state rides in the 2-3 hour range. And do those all the time.


I haven't tried a 70.3 yet, so take my bike advice with a grain of salt.

I consider a metric century my "long" ride if I plan to go on a ride "at pace" the entire time. Meaning for a metric, I'll go at an IF at or above 90%. I'm a "time crunched athlete". I've got 6 hours a week, max. So I'm a little different from the norm for this stuff.

I don't have time for LSB or endless hours of base miles.

But I do a 2 - 3 hour road ride every week, even if I don't have anything coming up. All year. Those rides in the 2 1/2 hr range can have an IF of 90% plus.

If I had to do a 1/2 IM and wanted to improve my bike time, I'd probably either outdoors or indoors do a lot of tough sweetspot and over/under interval workouts. Sweetspot being above a 1/2 IM bike split pace.

Like this:
-10 min warmup, up 10 watts per 30 secs to sweetspot, then do a 1 min power interval to get things moving
-dip back into sweetspot (90%) of ftp for 30min to 1hr
-easy spin for 8-12 min
-repeat the sweetspot another 30min to 1hr
-or try for just a full 1-hour long sweetspot interval if you don't have much time, FOCUS
Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1266799496

OR

-warmup
-over unders, over at ftp and under at 92% ftp......1 min over 2 min under.....8 to 12 min per rep
-8 min rest between sets, do 3 to 5 sets
Example:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1222568596

Don't laugh at my examples. I'm not the strongest person in the world, but I got that stuff from a Carmichael plan. It worked pretty well.

The power interval stuff probably isn't very helpful for a bike leg in a 70.3. It would tickle up your ftp either way, but meh.....you're not road racing.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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n=1. I went 2:45/1:48. I did multiple 60 mile bike rides right around my bike split wattage. I finished those with 10-30 min run. I ALWAYS ran the next day at my half marathon split pace or faster. Typically most runs were 12-14 miles. A lot of these rides/runs were fast finish. Meaning I'd start at my split wattage/pace and then pick it up the last 20-30 minutes.

I only train 8-10 hours a week so I do a lot of the higher intensity runs/rides during the week.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree with most people on this topic. I went sub 5hr this past September in my 2nd half ironman ever and my longest ride was 3hr long followed up with a 30min run. And my longest straight run was 2hr. All my workouts were time based not distance based and would go hard up hills and try and find the wind if I could. Everybody is different I guess play with one strategy this time and if you didn't like the results change it for next time.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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"Long" is defined by any run or ride whereupon completion of same I am greeted by D'Wife with: "Where the fuck have you been?"

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
As someone up above mentioned, it's not just distance, it's distance and intensity.

What has worked for me is going at race intensity for up to 50 miles on the bike followed by 5-6 miles on the run. I raced very well off of that. Keep in mind for the 2 months prior I was working up to those distances at race intensity.

There is still obviously a time and place for longer standalone rides/runs at less than race effort, but I think this approach for the brick is very beneficial.

Interesting.

I feel the same about the bike, but a 10k (6~ miles) at HIM effort is a tough workout to recover from during a hard training block/build. I mean, if I'm not training much and go out and run 10k @ HIM pace it's obviously a pretty quick recover. But during a hard training cycle, I'll most likely do these sessions tired and with heavy-ish legs,so it's a lot tougher both from a performance and from a recovery point of view.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
"Long" is defined by any run or ride whereupon completion of same I am greeted by D'Wife with: "Where the fuck have you been?"

Exactly!

I have been riding 100% indoor and then the variation is: "Ffs, I can't believe you're still there."
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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What's your weekly run mileage? I didn't find it hard to recover from those at all.

Strava I Instagram
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
What's your weekly run mileage? I didn't find it hard to recover from those at all.

40-45 miles per week, the vast majority of it very easy (7:50-8min/mile) and volume through frequency (6-7 runs per week).
HIM pace is around 6:55-7min/mile.

But on further thinking, most of the 10k runs @ HIM pace that fucked up my recovery were done when I was already pretty wrecked. I mean, it's probably an issue of overall accumulated fatigue.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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Ok so pretty good mileage. I had done a good run block leading into that, so had done plenty of running a lot faster than HIM pace so maybe that's the difference.

Strava I Instagram
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Ok so pretty good mileage. I had done a good run block leading into that, so had done plenty of running a lot faster than HIM pace so maybe that's the difference.

Yeah, I have been upping my mileage and my frequency slowly. First few weeks of 6-7 runs were tough, but eventually the legs got used to it.

Thanks.
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Re: How far is a “LONG” run/ride [ITRIhard] [ In reply to ]
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ITRIhard wrote:
I disagree with most people on this topic. I went sub 5hr this past September in my 2nd half ironman ever and my longest ride was 3hr long followed up with a 30min run. And my longest straight run was 2hr. All my workouts were time based not distance based and would go hard up hills and try and find the wind if I could. Everybody is different I guess play with one strategy this time and if you didn't like the results change it for next time.

I also agree with this 'less is more' philosophy to to 70.3 (and others).

My fastest 70.3 was on no bike rides over 3hrs outdoors, and no trainer rides over 2.5 hrs, and I only did such a longer ride 1x/week, and probably only 5-6 of the 3 hrs rides prior to race day, with the remaining weekends being 1-2 hr rides.

There was no slacking on these rides, though. I rode them as nearly as hard as I could while maintaining as even a power output as possible and not blowing up which ends up being mostly z3 on flats and z4 on hills, but easy pedaling on downhills so it averages out to Z2-3.

I ran up to 13 miles in a single run in training as well having a running background, but again, the buildup to my best race involved 8-11 milers 1x/week as the long run (but closer to a 9.5 mile long run on avg.)

For me at least, the definite benefit of the decreased volume of overall training was increase in hard day intensity, and as race day approached, increased overall intensity.

I tried doing the 70mpw rides several times prior to race day with 15-18 mile runs back to back on Sat/Sun but it absolutely destroyed me,even if I was taking the rest of the week mostly easy. My races were 'ok but meh' with this training, was actually a little depressing that I could just of 'meh' performances on so much volume. Felt a LOT more snappy and ready to rock with the faster, lower volume approach, and had no bonkage problems whatsoever.

And FWIW, I am NOT someone who thrives on low-volume training - it's just that pushing those 75+mpw bikes + big runs didn't gun enough top-end speed for me to race 70.3 as fast as I could. (That type of volume would likely work well if I was IM training though.)
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