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How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter?
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I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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- chasing a number (time or power)
- over-estimating their abilities
- not adjusting for conditions (higher temps than expected)
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Overestimating power and underestimating fuel.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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Poor planning, poor execution, poor adaptation. Pretty simple.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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By not having a plan B. You have to listen to your body and if heat becomes a factor you may have to dial it back a little and give up five minutes so you can run later.

A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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I am always worried about destroying my legs for the run so I typically "undercook" the bike, usually coming in 10-15 watts less than my goal. However, it has led to some nice (for me) run splits.

The one exception was Tahoe 2013. I had to overcook the bike to get up the four major climbs. No choice really if you wanted to finish the race. I paid for it with my slowest 26.2 ever. So sometimes the course forces you to exceed what you know you should be doing. Tahoe is still one of the best races I have ever done and I'm hoping that it sticks around so I can revisit it.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?


Ever hear FTP % for race distance numbers get thrown around? Like 70% for IM?

People will chase that number no matter what. That number carries with it a lot of assumptions, most notably their FTP is correct (often not the case) and they actually practiced riding 70% for 5+ hours with a run after (often not the case). Add not adjusting your pace on race day to account for things like heat, humidity, and altitude... and number chasing turns into "I rode like an idiot for 112 miles."

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: GMAN19030: Aug 14, 15 5:05
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?


Ever hear FTP % for race distance numbers get thrown around? Like 70% for IM?

People will chase that number no matter what. That number carries with it a lot of assumptions, most notably their FTP is correct (often not the case) and they actually practiced riding 70% for 5+ hours with a run after (often not the case). Add not adjusting your pace on race day to account for things like heat, humidity, and altitude... and number chasing turns into "I rode like an idiot for 112 miles."

Yup. this is why it's also important to be able to keep your RPE in check. Your power meter might be telling you that you'e on pace but your RPE could be telling you that you're over-exerting yourself.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?

Pacing based off of an inflated FTP assumption.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?

Maybe some chase an ave power that's worked on a flat course when they're on a hilly course. I always target NP as a better metric of how much effort I've expended.

Maybe they feel great on the day and think they're planned power is too low and decide to target a higher figure. It's always tempting at the start of the bike when you're fresh from taper.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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I had a textbook example of overcooking with a PM (in training) and the opposite, in the last couple weeks. This is my first season with a PM, so it's definitely a learning experience.

With a fairly current FTP test, I went out 3 weeks ago to ride the IMWI bike loop X2, at 70% FTP. First loop fine, right on target, but it was getting warm. Second loop, harder to hold 70% (should have been a clue) and by the time I hit Cross Plains it was 84 degrees. After the first climb on Old Sauk Pass, I was toast. Was all I could to do put out 35-40% of FTP and limp back the 8-10 miles to the car in Verona. Felt like I was going to pass out at the car putting the bike away.

Fast forward a couple weeks, another attempt. This time it was 10 degrees cooler, I adjusted my nutrition (found I just couldn't drink enough to get more than 200/cals an hour of liquid nutrition, so I supplemented with some "real" food in bars to get closer to 300/hr), and probably most importantly, rode the first loop at closer to 65% (partially but just ignoring the PM and going by feel, checking my NP every once in a while to make sure it wasn't creeping up). Then I felt strong on the second loop at slightly above 70% FTP, and added on 16 miles at 70% to get to a round 100 miles. I felt fine on a short run.

The biggest thing I've been learning about training/racing with a PM has been to not obsess over the numbers every minute. And my personality is definitely to nail the numbers, so I can see how it is so easy to get caught up in chasing that 70%, ignoring whatever else is going on (heat, nutrition, just not your day).
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?


Ever hear FTP % for race distance numbers get thrown around? Like 70% for IM?

People will chase that number no matter what. That number carries with it a lot of assumptions, most notably their FTP is correct (often not the case) and they actually practiced riding 70% for 5+ hours with a run after (often not the case). Add not adjusting your pace on race day to account for things like heat, humidity, and altitude... and number chasing turns into "I rode like an idiot for 112 miles."

Most of those guys probably needed to ride 60% of what they THINK their FTP is, given that they don't want to ride at 70% of what their FTP ACTUALLY IS! Probably the best thing for many of the guys who train by power, is to throw away the garmin head unit on race day and just go by feel. They already know what spiking power "feels like" so they know not to do that....then they won't chase a power number the rest of the day and just self govern based on feel (no bike computer permitted either).

What was interesting coaching teenagers a few years ago is observing their behavior on the bike before they got bike computers. They just self regulated pace and rode the way humans would "pace" without a powermeter but without a bike computer....they just naturally self select pace (and these are teenagers with too much testosterone). Once they get bike computers they just spike their power everywhere chasing a speed.

I am also seeing people doing the same stupidity with GPS on the run. Just a few years ago, we would run faster with a tailwind and downhill and meter out our effort with a headwind and uphill. Now you have guys artificially following a "pace" that they think they have to do, rather than just going by what their body will allow.....and this goes right down to the fairly beginner recreational runner chasing the GPS number in every workout.

Dev
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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Other than legs being trashed (heavy, cramping, won't fire), can you say you overcooked the bike if your lungs are trashed (heavy breathing, high HR)?
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Zenmaster28 wrote:
- chasing a number (time or power)
- over-estimating their abilities
- not adjusting for conditions (higher temps than expected)

This, esp the last one

I am a pretty good example. Look at these 2 races:

-- Ironman Chattanooga Sept 2014: I got a 3 minute penalty for littering so rode harder from the time of infraction to the penalty tent, my average power ended up around 75% of FTP and with a high variability. Also, bike course was a bit longer than 112 miles so one would think run would become a walk of shame. No, best run ever

-- Ironman Texas May 2015: Was in better shape than IMCHOO but my average power about 10W lower and yet melted on the run

So many factors affecting if you overcook the run and if you dont adapt to the condictions and course it is soo easy to undercook or overcook. In my case, the heat in texas and the non-wetsuit swim affected me a lot. IMCHOO had a current assisted non-wetsuit swim and comfortable temps.

I think it is about having lots of race experience, being smart on race day and lucky. Those 3 things in combination are difficult to achieve
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?

"over-cooking" is because they aren't racing to finish, they are racing to win.

Endurance athletes in competitive divisions know that they need their theoretical best day to place where they want. They can't just finish an event comfortably, if you want to win/compete then you basically need a great day and as close to 100% of your limit as possible. So they will bike at the pace that they need to get the finish that they want, unfortunately if it isn't their day, then it's going to be obvious at some point that they don't have the ability to finish that day as strong as they want.

It's basically "win or bin", it happens in everything from running to auto racing and has nothing to do with a power meter. It isn't a top amateur thing, go look at Kona champions a couple years after their win, I'm pretty sure a for 2-3 years after his last win Macca biked for a top 5 finish, he wasn't lining up for 30th.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that getting your best possible time requires being on a knife edge. Fall on the wrong side of that edge and you're toast. Fall on the right side of it and you get the spoils.

There is always an element of risk to doing the very best you can do.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Aug 14, 15 6:13
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
I would say that getting your best possible time requires being on a knife edge. Fall on thet wrong side of that edge and you're toast. Fall on the right side of it and you get the spoils.

There is always an element of risk to doing the very best you can do.

I like Patrick McCrann's quote from EN....something along the lines of, "If you made the mistake of undercooking the bike, you get 26 new opportunities to correct that mistake every mile of the run". Now if I can only get myself to the point where I correct the errors of undercooking the first 127 miles of an IM. Come to think of it, my best IM ever was with no watch, no powermeter, no bike computer.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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Same way top pros over cook the bike.
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
I would say that getting your best possible time requires being on a knife edge. Fall on the wrong side of that edge and you're toast. Fall on the right side of it and you get the spoils.

There is always an element of risk to doing the very best you can do.

Agreed.

I'd add that pro or elite athlete the mindset should NEVER be you are slave to powermeter.....it is simply an education tool for the supercomputer between the ears, too many athletes don't pay attention to how they feel, how hard the engine is revv'ing (HR), fuelling etc....the goal at the sharp end is to be mindful of everything in the moment and make smart decisions. Not blindly cling to "number".

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]
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"^^^^This. Most PM owners essentially are using them as very expensive speedometers and HR monitors. And many PM owners discount the real value of RPE in pacing."

I think perhaps a corollary to that is that "many PM owners discount the real value of the PM on rolling terrain."

Specifically, they rely on RPE on the uphill segments despite what their PM is telling them, resulting in riding far too hard on the ups, especially early in the leg when they are fresh and the adrenaline is high and FTP doesn't feel that hard. It is hard to keep the watts down when people are flying past you on a 5' long climb, but those trips into the red zone can have a crushing cumulative effect over the course of the race. You could have the same rider ride a course two times and end up with the same Np, but if one of the times he/she crushes the hills and goes easier on the downs/flats and the other he/she keeps a more steady range of power, he/she is going to be much less "cooked" w/the latter strategy.



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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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Goal Setting/Risk Taking. I know I can ride 73% FTP and run awesome; but if I want to KQ or beat a time or something, I might try to ride 80% and roll the dice on having a great day.

If I am 100% certain that 73% FTP gets me a 3:25 off the bike and leaves me short of KQ, then I may decide to ride 76% off the bike and TRY to run 3:25 or 3:26 in the efforts of giving me a shot at a KQ.

It's a risk. If the goal is just to guarantee a good run/pretty good time, absolutely no reason to overcook the bike at all. But if the goal is to do your absolute best on a given day, then taking some intelligent and designed risks might be a part of the plan. Some times they work out and sometimes they blow up.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
GMAN19030 wrote:
TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?


Ever hear FTP % for race distance numbers get thrown around? Like 70% for IM?

People will chase that number no matter what. That number carries with it a lot of assumptions, most notably their FTP is correct (often not the case) and they actually practiced riding 70% for 5+ hours with a run after (often not the case). Add not adjusting your pace on race day to account for things like heat, humidity, and altitude... and number chasing turns into "I rode like an idiot for 112 miles."


Most of those guys probably needed to ride 60% of what they THINK their FTP is, given that they don't want to ride at 70% of what their FTP ACTUALLY IS! Probably the best thing for many of the guys who train by power, is to throw away the garmin head unit on race day and just go by feel. They already know what spiking power "feels like" so they know not to do that....then they won't chase a power number the rest of the day and just self govern based on feel (no bike computer permitted either).

What was interesting coaching teenagers a few years ago is observing their behavior on the bike before they got bike computers. They just self regulated pace and rode the way humans would "pace" without a powermeter but without a bike computer....they just naturally self select pace (and these are teenagers with too much testosterone). Once they get bike computers they just spike their power everywhere chasing a speed.

I am also seeing people doing the same stupidity with GPS on the run. Just a few years ago, we would run faster with a tailwind and downhill and meter out our effort with a headwind and uphill. Now you have guys artificially following a "pace" that they think they have to do, rather than just going by what their body will allow.....and this goes right down to the fairly beginner recreational runner chasing the GPS number in every workout.

Dev

Interesting that you this up.....my experience is kinda the exact opposite.

I can nail my pacing on the bike with no issues. As you describe above, i have a very good instinct for what effort it will take me to complete a given distance. I use the PM for validation and as an "upper limit" checker (gotta keep the old bike racer in me in check, ya know?). But I have 30 years of experience on the bike, as well, so I have a pretty good data bank to draw from.

At Madison last year, I forgot to put my Garmin on my wrist in T2 (left it on the bike mount). Didn't even have a basic watch with me, so I was running completely by feel.....and I was screwed. I don't have anywhere near the wealth of experience running that I do with the bike, so metering that effort by feel is really hard for me. End result - I ran WAY too hard coming out of T2. Y mile 8.5 I started feeling dodgy and by mile 11, I was walking. My fastest goal pace was 9:00 / mile....I ran the second split (2.9 miles) on 7:52's. But it *felt* easy for me.....until it wasn't.

So I don't know if we really have the ability to "self-select" the "right" pace without a fair amount of experience that we can draw upon.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: How do top amateurs over cook the IM Bike with power meter? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
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TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I'm really confused how top amateurs over cook the IM bike when you have power meter? Do they get caught up in beating a certain bike split time?

The clue is in the question. They are amateurs. There are lots of reasons why - but the fundamental reason is that they do not pay their mortgage racing, so they do not take it as seriously - so they make lots of mistakes.

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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