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Hoka sizing - my own study + results
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We've had some discussions here about Hoka sizing. I got a number of pairs of shoes, different sizes, here's what I've discovered (at least for my size).

I first wrote about Hoka One One some years back, when the only shoe Hoka made was the good ship (battleship) Mafate. This boat introduced me to the Hoka concept, and it was big. Just big. Shortly thereafter Hoka introduced its road shoe, the Bondi, which has become my everyday go-to run shoe since. Until lately, that is, and now it splits duties.

I am now gravitating toward the Conquest for reasons that have nothing to do with the features in this shoe, rather its an issue of fit. Below is how I think the fit has morphed in Hokas over the last couple of years, because Hoka has been a wildly successful brand since its inception; a lot of its success has been in and through the window of triathlon; and this site here you readers are the epicenter of Hoka Madness.

Lets talk about the Bondi, because this has been a mainstay in road running for Hoka since its inception. Of course the model is all of 4 years old, maybe, and thats a generous estimate. Still this model has morphed, for a number of reasons.

I think there have been 4 sizing iterations for this model. This is neither good nor bad, it just is. The only bad part of it is if youre trying to keep yourself in this shoe and youre not quite sure of whats sizing personality is. This is Hoka sizing decoded from my vantage point.


This shoe above is the original Bondi, in one of its colorways. This is the shoe that hooked me. One thing about this shoe, back then, it was a tad snug. I wear size-12, and my foot took up all the space inside. It was good snug. But if it was slightly bigger I would not have complained. Most of you have never been in this shoe, as it was early, hard to get hold of, and was not made in huge quantities.



And I think others felt the same about the snugness, because there was a seasonal change, and the shoe really didnt change per se, its features and construction, mostly just in colors and this is one of the colors above, but it seemed to me the shoe got slightly larger. It was still the Bondi B but Ill call it the B-r as in the Bondi B-revised. This I also bought in size 12, but Id like you to look at this comparison below.



This is an old Bondi B-r in size-12 Id run to death next to a shoe 2 generations later. This is a new Bondi 3 in black. This black shoe is the shoe Im going to be running in now. Except this shoe is size 11.5. I got this pair in this size because the generation of shoe in between, the B2, shown below, was just a bigger shoe than the B-r. The Bondi 2 and the Bondi 3 both seem to be to be about a half-size longer than the old Bondi B (or B-revised).



This shoe right here, above, the B 2, represents a size morph, at least in size-12. I could easily have run in 11.5 in these. Theyd have fit me snugly but nicely.



Heres a side-by-side of the B2 and the B3, and I want you to notice one specific feature: the tongue. The Bondi always had a padded tongue until the Bondi 3, and then this shoe went to a flat, thin tongue. This is the tongue youll see on the Conquest. The tongue, the eyerow, its the same motif on both Bondi 3 and Conquest. I bring this up because this affects the volume of the shoe, in the vamp. This shoe now has slightly more volume, not because of the dimensions of the shoe, but because the padded tongue took up volume. As a result, this shoe is really a larger shoe, in size 11.5, than the size-12 was in the original Bondi B.

This Bondi 3 is still an important shoe for me, because it just seems to me to be slightly more stable on trails than the Conquest. I dont know it feels that way to me. Ive measured the width of the shoes with my calipers the width of the bottoms of the shoes and they calc out almost identical. Still, I just feel a slight bit more stable in the Bondi.



The Conquest, above, while its outsole and midsole is pretty similar in dimension to the Bondi 3, I find that this shoe measures about 4mm narrower in the upper than the Bondi. I also have this shoe now in 11.5. I think its safe to say that over the past 2 years this brand has dropped a half-size compared to what you were buying in Hokas back then. The Conquest, in size-11.5, fits me almost exactly the way the old Bondi B did in size-12. This shoe feels fast to me. Ive got that snug papoose fit that I like.

But there are differences between this shoe and the Bondi 3. The Conquest feels harder. This is going to be a blessing to those who felt the Bondi was just too soft. The Conquest does not feel hard, if youre grading on a curve, its still going to be more cushiony than almost anything else youre running in thats not a Hoka. But its harder than a Bondi. Maybe thats the nature of RMAT, the midsole material used liberally in the Conquest.

The Conquest is going to be my trainer for roads and for flat, even gravel or dirt surfaces. Itll probably be my race flat if I race and until the Huaka and Clifton come out when Katie bar the doors! - Im going to lace up those helium balloons (or at least thats how theyll likely feel after years of running in the Bondi, a by no means heavy shoe, but, if you let me save a quarter or a third of the weight out of my racing flat Im happy to take it).

When I find a shoe I love in the Bondi B, I dont want that sucker to change. Just like Trader Joes, dont hook me on the Hot and Sweet Pepper Jelly if youre just going to pull it from the shelves once I get addicted. There are certain things about the Bondi I would prefer remained unchanged. The size, I dont care about, Ill adapt. Will the padded tongue end up back in the Bondi? I hope so, but I dont know. Ill still be eager for the shoe if that feature doesnt come back, but, for my feet which may or may not have the volume needs of your feet the Conquest with the thin tongue is perfect, and the Bondi with the padded tongue was perfect.

On this forum I would read that the Stinson was narrower than the Bondi, and I thought, what's this forum user talking about? I now understand, if it's the Bondi 3. Accordingly, my cheat sheet, I don't know about the Stinson, but if you want a narrower shoe in a Hoka it's going to be the Conquest, if you want a wider shoe it's going to be the Bondi 3. And, I would move a half-size down from typical, at least for now, at least in these 2 models, at least if your shoe size is about like mine.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Apr 17, 14 17:14
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Agree that they have dropped a half-size. My first Bondi B's were 9.5 and fit well, but had enough room for my custom orthotics (when I got them. Didn't have the originally)

When I got a pair of Bondi B2's for Xmas, (9.5) I couldn't use the orthotics at all and they were snug w/o them.

My new Conquests are 9's and a touch big (narrow feet). The 9.5's were HUGE on me.

So yup....the Conquests seem to be about a half size down from previous Hokas.

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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I got hooked after reading some of your posts, Dan. I've been through 3 pairs of Bondi 2s, and recently bought a pair of Conquests and a pair of Bondi 3s, all in size 10.

I loved the Bondi 2s, in all respects except that the uppers would disintegrate too quickly. I used them to run a pretty nice marathon PR in London last weekend, and I'm feeling better this week than I ever have after a marathon, much better.

I've been more disappointed so far with the Conquests and the Bondi 3s. Both of them seem firmer than the Bondi 2s, which worries me. It was the forgiving ride of the Bondi 2s that allowed me to put in my highest ever mileage and break PRs at 10, 13.1, and 26.2 over the past couple of months. The uppers do seem more resilient, which is a good thing. Perhaps they'll also be a little less squelchy in the hot summer months. But I've found the upper to be less comfortable in these newer shoes, and that's a real bummer. The upper digs into my ankle on the Bondi 3s, and the fit seems less comfy on both. I talked with a Hoka rep about my regrets when I was at the London Marathon Expo last week. He said that they no longer have anything as forgiving as the Bondi 2s, and he just said "it's a commercial decision", and had no sympathy for the fact that this customer was actually happier with what they were making before.
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [colinphillips] [ In reply to ]
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x2

Loved the Bondi 2's, Don't like the Conquests, I am going to try the Bondi 3s next - if I don't like those I will buy every pair of the Bondi 2s that I can find in my size
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [ds] [ In reply to ]
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ds wrote:
x2

Loved the Bondi 2's, Don't like the Conquests, I am going to try the Bondi 3s next - if I don't like those I will buy every pair of the Bondi 2s that I can find in my size

I think somebody may have beaten you to that. I had that idea for my size, and they weren't available anywhere.
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm semi-afraid you're going to start requiring people to wear Hokas to post on the forum

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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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First thanks Dan.

I had the Bondi B, size 10, I bought at Vineman expo last summer and ran in it until Feb. They had an issue, Hoka replaced them with the Bondi 3. Like you posted I found there was more volume then the Bondi B. I'm going to try a 9.5 next, like you'll I'll adapt.

A few weeks ago I got the Conquest in a size 10, I like them. I agree a firmer ride then the Bondi. I find it has less volume then the B3, not sure I can/need to go down to a 9.5.


Train safe & smart
Bob

Last edited by: Longboarder: Apr 17, 14 22:45
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [ In reply to ]
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After multiple shoe attempts, I purchased the Stinson Tarmacs. Love them with an orthotic insert, but wanted something a little lighter. Tried the Bondi 3, but it's wider in the heel area and didn't feel stable. I purchased the Conquest and they fit great, just not near as plush as the Stinson Tarmacs.
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My experiences have been similar. I first ran in the Gray/white/orange Bondi and really loved them. They pretty much allowed me to slowly get back to running after recovering from my leg surgery. This pair was an 11.5 which is a full size larger than my usual 10.5. I recently got a pair of Bondi 3 and went back down to 10.5. The less padded tongue is a little less comfortable to me and it has a slightly firmer ride. I only have a few runs in them but they have a noticeably different feel to them. Still very comfy but different. I did not like the fit and feel of the Conquest at all.

Formerly DrD
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

Heres a side-by-side of the B2 and the B3, and I want you to notice one specific feature: the tongue. The Bondi always had a padded tongue until the Bondi 3, and then this shoe went to a flat, thin tongue. This is the tongue youll see on the Conquest. The tongue, the eyerow, its the same motif on both Bondi 3 and Conquest. I bring this up because this affects the volume of the shoe, in the vamp. This shoe now has slightly more volume, not because of the dimensions of the shoe, but because the padded tongue took up volume. As a result, this shoe is really a larger shoe, in size 11.5, than the size-12 was in the original Bondi B.

QFE: From what the product developers are telling me, this is the reason the Bondi 3 fits more generously than the Bondi 2. Midsole dimensions are exactly the same, and the same last mold was used, but the thinner materials and thinner tongue give the fit a little more volume.


Slowman wrote:


But there are differences between this shoe and the Bondi 3. The Conquest feels harder. This is going to be a blessing to those who felt the Bondi was just too soft. The Conquest does not feel hard, if youre grading on a curve, its still going to be more cushiony than almost anything else youre running in thats not a Hoka. But its harder than a Bondi. Maybe thats the nature of RMAT, the midsole material used liberally in the Conquest.
Yes, that is due to the RMAT usage. The RMAT is a more responsive material and should feel a little less soft than the Bondi, though it is by no means a stiff shoe.

Slowman wrote:
On this forum I would read that the Stinson was narrower than the Bondi, and I thought, what's this forum user talking about? I now understand, if it's the Bondi 3. Accordingly, my cheat sheet, I don't know about the Stinson, but if you want a narrower shoe in a Hoka it's going to be the Conquest, if you want a wider shoe it's going to be the Bondi 3. And, I would move a half-size down from typical, at least for now, at least in these 2 models, at least if your shoe size is about like mine.

I am guessing that forum user was me, ha, and yes I was comparing to the Bondi 3. While the Bondi has been fitting more generously than the Conquest, they are actually built on the same last mold, meaning the fits should be relatively similar. The difference comes in the upper designs and cuts. The Stinson is built on a different last mold than the Bondi/Conquest and fits more narrow for ***most*** people. From personal experience: I have a narrow arch, low volume foot, and wide(ish) toe box, and am a size 9.5 in the Stinsons and Rapa Nui, but need to go down to sz9 for the Bondi and Conquest.
.

Hoka One One - Field Service Rep
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have the Bondi Speed in size 11 from last year and the Stinson Trail in 11.5 current model. Both fit great.

Love the shoes but not crazy about the laces. I see you put regular laces in. I wonder if they will change them at some point?

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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have wide feet and I usually size a 1/2 size up to compensate. In a perfect world I would wear an 11.5 EE/Wide running shoe but no running shoe that works for me comes in a wide. So I almost always wear a 12. The Bondi B2 fit me perfectly in a 12. The 11.5 did not work. So I bought a size 12 in the Bondi B3 and it's a little too big. The 11.5 was still too narrow. I think the padded tongue in the B2 really helped the size 12 fit me well, whereas the B3 without the padded tongue is too roomy. The Conquest size 12 fits great.

I would love to see the padded tongue return.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [BionicMan] [ In reply to ]
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"Love the shoes but not crazy about the laces. I see you put regular laces in. I wonder if they will change them at some point?"

i don't know if they'll change the laces. bear in mind these folks started who started the brand were ultra trail running enthusiasts, and the choice for laces sprung from that. i guess i don't care, they put both sets of laces in the box. one set of laces is in the shoe, because the laces you can't take out and put it in. i think THAT is changing in the future.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Birdmantris] [ In reply to ]
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Birdmantris wrote:
I'm semi-afraid you're going to start requiring people to wear Hokas to post on the forum
Agree feels like a little indoctrination is taking place
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
I have wide feet and I usually size a 1/2 size up to compensate. In a perfect world I would wear an 11.5 EE/Wide running shoe but no running shoe that works for me comes in a wide. So I almost always wear a 12. The Bondi B2 fit me perfectly in a 12. The 11.5 did not work. So I bought a size 12 in the Bondi B3 and it's a little too big. The 11.5 was still too narrow. I think the padded tongue in the B2 really helped the size 12 fit me well, whereas the B3 without the padded tongue is too roomy. The Conquest size 12 fits great.

I would love to see the padded tongue return.

I have a similar gripe. I wear 2E and 4E width shoes, but go 1/2 size up in the Bondis to make them work. I did like the fit of the Bondi 2 better because of the padded tongue. I'm not a fan of the super-thin tongue on the Bondi 3 either.

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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [TriBodyboarder] [ In reply to ]
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I have run in the Bondi with the padded tongue over the last year. Recently got a pair of the Conquest and have had problems with the thin tongue. Does not seem to lie flat where it connect to the side of the shoe at the top. This has resulted in a rub spot on my foot in that area despite wearing socks. I've put regular laces in and tried several adjustments but no improvement. Anyone else have this problem....solutions?

Randy
http://www.gulfcoasttriteam.com
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [ZackP] [ In reply to ]
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Zack,
What's the feedback been on the new thin tongue design? I haven't heard one person that thinks this has been a favorable update (from here and friends).

Can we start an online petition to bring back the padded tongue? :-)

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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Zack,
What's the feedback been on the new thin tongue design? I haven't heard one person that thinks this has been a favorable update (from here and friends).

Can we start an online petition to bring back the padded tongue? :-)
---------------------------------
add me to the list

PS my wife too


Train safe & smart
Bob

Last edited by: Longboarder: Apr 20, 14 7:51
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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Love my Bondi's but hate the new thin tongue as well. It sometimes slips down the top of my foot while I'm running, and I have to stop, unlace, pull it back up, re-lace. Total pain the ass. Don't know why they made that change.
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
Zack,
What's the feedback been on the new thin tongue design? I haven't heard one person that thinks this has been a favorable update (from here and friends).

Can we start an online petition to bring back the padded tongue? :-)

Ha, I can pass along that petition to the higher ups.

Feedback has been split on the thinner tongue. People new to the product have generally appreciated it, and previous Hoka customers are split. The padded tongue was causing some chaffing issues on the top of the foot, while the hotspots for the new tongue seem to be where the top of the tongue meets the ankle, or where the tongue overlaps the last lace eyelet. We do pretty extensive product testing, combined with feedback like this helps us to refine the product as best we can, so I will be sure to pass along this board's prevailing preference, which seems to be for the padded tongue.
.

Hoka One One - Field Service Rep
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having had all the Bondi B models in the article I can confirm the sizing variations. I now have the blue colour Bondi B and a the Stinsons Evo in the same size and can conform that they fit very differently in the same size. The Stinson is a lot narrower and I much prefer the fit. It looks like the Conquest is going to fit me a lot better then the Bondi B does.
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [ZackP] [ In reply to ]
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i have no trouble with either tongue. i just prefer the padded tongue in the bondi and the think tongue in the conquest because of how the shoes fit. if you change materials, or seams, or the tongue style, you're going to change the way the shoe fits. so, if your shoe fit well, and you make any of these changes, your shoe may fit less well, or fit a different class of people than they previously fit.

in my opinion, the people who are the most trustworthy in giving feedback are those who are familiar with both tongue styles. the new people, who haven't been in previous iterations of the bondi, don't have any reference for comparison.

my vote, go back to the padded tongue for the bondi, keep the thin tongue for the conquest.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I ran in Brooks size 11.5 for years and years.

I tried Hokas recently. Bondis, Rapa Nui Tarmac and Conquest. I tried 11, 11.5 and 12. Too small, just right, too big.

So fit (for me at least) is same as Brooks.

My +1
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [ZackP] [ In reply to ]
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I could care less about the padded tongue. But I just bought a pair of Bondi 3's and they don't have the cushioning that made me a Hoka customer. Why make shoes that thick if they're not cushioned? Does anyone have a suggestion for a Bondi 2 replacement?

“Read the transcript.”
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Re: Hoka sizing - my own study + results [sslothrop] [ In reply to ]
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sslothrop wrote:
I could care less about the padded tongue. But I just bought a pair of Bondi 3's and they don't have the cushioning that made me a Hoka customer. Why make shoes that thick if they're not cushioned? Does anyone have a suggestion for a Bondi 2 replacement?

Sure, what about these..... http://www.runningwarehouse.com/...cpageMRS-HOBBM3.html

I predict they will be the exact same feel as the Bondi 2...
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