Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired....

Mar 30, 15 10:51

Post #1 of 18 (4121 views)

I typically try to test my FTP at the end of a recovery week using the 5 minute/20 minute method (95% - as per TrainerRoad). Most recently I tested 340 watts (360 watts*95%).

So here's my question:

How do you guys hit your power numbers when you are coming off a very heavy running/cycling/swimming week? Most Sunday's I do a 90 minute ride with some heavy sweet spot or threshold intervals - I've been really struggling to hit my target wattage on Sunday after a long hard week (5-10% below target)....do you guys recommend I push hard despite not hitting my numbers or dialing it back and just turning my Sunday ride into a Z2 effort?

Thank you in advance for your feedback.

If it helps, here's what last week looked like.

Monday - Hard swim, 30 minute recovery run
Tuesday - 1 hr ride (40 minutes sweet spot at ~300 watts), 9 mile run
Wednesday - 75 minute swim, 30 minute run
Thursday - 1 hr ride (4x10 minutes at 330-340 watts with 2 minutes easy spinning). Followed by a 14km tempo run.
Friday - 1 hr swim
Saturday - Easy 3.5 hour Z1/Z2 bike and a 4 mile run
Sunday - Short Swim. 25km long run. 90 minute ride with 5x9 minute over under intervals (1min at 95%/ 2min at 105% etc).

Last edited by: TeJa: Mar 30, 15 11:11

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:13

Post #2 of 18 (4058 views)

Probably shouldn't be running 25k before a hard ride if you want to hit your power numbers...

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when your tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:13

Post #3 of 18 (4056 views)

I've done that same 90 min. over/under TrainerRoad workout the last 2 weeks. Finished it the first time in decent shape but yesterday I had to bail on the last 9 minute interval. It shakes your confidence, but I think it is just a tough workout especially if you have some fatigue from prior workouts in your legs.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [Lav] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:14

Post #4 of 18 (4043 views)

To clarify, I do my long run many hours after my ride.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when your tired.... [stewie] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:21

Post #5 of 18 (4013 views)

The workout is called Palisade. On a fresh day it's a hard work out....but on a tired day it will crush you!

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:23

Post #6 of 18 (4004 views)

Gotcha.

Well, if you're tired and can't hit your numbers, seems pretty logical that you need to cut back somewhere and/or take a recovery day. You're either doing too much volume or too much intensity.

Personally I take a recovery day every Monday. Usually just an easy swim or bike.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when your tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:30

Post #7 of 18 (3965 views)

That's the one. I think you need to be relatively fresh to hit that workout. I wouldn't worry too much about not hitting that workout if you are hitting power on your other rides.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:40

Post #8 of 18 (3928 views)

That is a wholy grail 5million dollar question. It has everything to do in finding that optimum mid week load that will allow you to pull that off. Just glancing at your week, it is very loaded before you even start the weekend. I have run into the same issues.
I am having success observing and governing the effort with HR along with PM so I am getting the more accurate cost of the effort at those watts. I cap the effort with HR or PM whichever reaches my determined range, than I stay within. Sometimes I push 285W in a given range sometimes 270W, as long as I am in the approximate zone, I seem to be able to recover and do it over again.
One greatly overlooked fact is that FTP is a moving target, day to day, greatly depending on many factors. For years I did not realize that subtle effect and kept chasing the absolute numbers, to only crack at the workout 3 days downstream......I no longer latch to power numbers only.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when your tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:47

Post #9 of 18 (3918 views)

I dread the TR 90 minute over/unders the most - Palisade or its derivatives (Mary Austin on the schedule for tomorrow morning)

Typically I will schedule this workout immediately after a rest day to make sure I hit power numbers. In your case I would recommend Saturday. IMO you don't need to go into the long bike on Sunday fresh. You might also want to consider moving your long run to a weekday to manage your fatigue appropriately (I do my long run 2 days before this workout, so Thursday).

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when your tired.... [sch340] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:50

Post #10 of 18 (3901 views)

i despise TR O/U workouts. surefire way to decimate the legs. I find a big part of it is mental, and I say that having bailed on them before. Once I finally brought myself to suffer through, and I did suffer hard, i found they were doable but only barely.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [atasic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 11:52

Post #11 of 18 (3892 views)

VERY good points. I knew I was tired when my legs didn't have anything left and I couldn't even get my heart rate up on the last two sets.... I'm usually less concerned with this on a Sunday because I know Monday is an easy day. If I still can't hit my numbers on Tuesday then I take a day off OR just do an easy ride in place of the hard interval session.

The 5 million dollar question is one of the reasons I love this sport so much.Some will argue that you shouldn't do threshold or V02 max intervals unless you are fresh...ie if you can't hit your numbers you are only digging a deeper hole without the full intended benefits of said workouts.........that being said, I also think that training is about pushing through the bad days and building successive stress on the system in advance of recovery weeks - historically this is what has pushed me past plateaus even if it means I have really tough weeks that kill my confidence.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 12:13

Post #12 of 18 (3832 views)

How big are you? I guess I'm the only one who noticed that you have estimated your FTP at 340 watts. If that's accurate why would you ask anybody on this forum for their advise?

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TPerry] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 12:21

Post #13 of 18 (3806 views)

Noticed this too. That is a very healthy FTP!

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 12:27

Post #14 of 18 (3783 views)

Maybe you should run this question by your coach?

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 13:31

Post #15 of 18 (3669 views)

Is it that you can't hit the power at all, or you can't sustain the power for the length of the interval? For the latter, IIRC Coggin's power book suggests that you should end the interval portion of a workout when you can't hit a certain percentage of your target intervals due to fatigue. For me, I just do the best I can each day - if my power is lower because I'm tired (for whatever reason ... too much training or life stuff), I don't let it get to me. I come back tomorrow, get back on the plan and hit it then.

I'd guess your sunday bike is impacted by the long run. I can't complete a hard cycling workout after a 25km run the day before (sometimes even 2 days, depending on the day).

You could try to move your hard run midweek and make sunday an easier run, to see if that allows you to get the most out of your Sunday ride.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TPerry] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 14:24

Post #16 of 18 (3576 views)

TPerry wrote:

How big are you? I guess I'm the only one who noticed that you have estimated your FTP at 340 watts. If that's accurate why would you ask anybody on this forum for their advise?

I thought the whole OP was an elaborate back door brag.

Last edited by: trail: Mar 30, 15 14:25

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [trail] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 19:09

Post #17 of 18 (3387 views)

there's a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum. If you're going to contribute then please make it friendly and create a learning environment that everyone can benefit from. n does not = 1 which is why everything needs to be put into context....experienced athletes can handle various amounts of training stress and volume vs. inexperinced athletes.

Re: Hitting your Power Numbers when you're tired.... [TeJa] [ In reply to ]

Mar 30, 15 20:56

Post #18 of 18 (3318 views)

TeJa wrote:

there's a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum. If you're going to contribute then please make it friendly and create a learning environment that everyone can benefit from. n does not = 1 which is why everything needs to be put into context....experienced athletes can handle various amounts of training stress and volume vs. inexperinced athletes.

I didn't mean it in an unfriendly way! I love a good backdoor brag. Frontdoor too!

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