I just read something on this from the guys at Swim Smooth. They took a group of elite swimmers and put them in an endless pool. Pace was set at 1:40/100m. They averaged between 55 and 65 spm. They then had them decrease their spm by 10% and 20% and then increase by 10% and 20%. When they decreased their stroke rate there o2 intake and heart rate increased considerably. When they increased by 10% all indicators stayed about the same (a very alight rise) and at 20% it increased as with decreasing the spm. Their conclussion was that most swimmers will fall in to the stroke rate that works for them. They also said that slowing the rate causes you to kick harder and pull harder to maintain the same pace.

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To me the point of high stroke rate vs. low stroke rate is to get the optimal benefit of each style you must use a DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE. In my opinion to get an optimal result from high stroke rate you have minimal shoulder turn(shoulder turn slows down your stroke rate),you reach up and anchor your hand and pull as hard as you can as fast as you can and kick as hard as you can. That is the high stroke rate technique. The low stroke rate technique is basically the opposite. You turn your shoulders a lot(up to 90 degrees)then pause,find your balance point and snap your arm forward and PUSH your way through the water. That is how you get your power so you don't need a hard pull or kick. Up to now the large majority of triathletes use the high stroke style. As I always said try them both and you decide.

Posted above on this, but it's kind of a 'no duh' finding.

If you tell swimmers to hold the same speed, but stroke LESS, they're going to kick harder to make up for it and/or pull harder on their fewer strokes. In that swimsmooth episode, they found that the swimmers taking less strokes were burning more O2 (or something like that), but that's very easy to explain since they're kicking a lot more to maintain speed (and legs are less energy efficient than the arms in swim.) I don't think you can draw any conclusions as to which is better or which burns more/less energy based upon what they did.

The quote"with the lower stroke rate I'm over-rotating to propel myself through the water"is interesting. That is exactly how to do low stroke swimming,rotate your shoulders,BUT the next step is absolutely CRUCIAL to make it work. After you have rotated your shoulders you have to STOP and find your BALANCE POINT! If you don't find that point you over or under rotate and lose momentum. A great example is Andre Agassi. Just about EVERY time he hits the tennis ball he STOPS,finds his balance point and then blasts the tennis ball. Same with Larry Bird,just before he shoots he stops,finds his balance point,then lets it fly. It is the same with low stroke swimming(you don't have time to do it with high stroke swimming,lol). So to sum up,rotate your shoulders,stop and find your balance point then snap your arm forward and push your way through the water. Repeat as neccessary.

Tom- I've had the day to think about this and I half agree with what Monty says- you can't expect it to feel good after one session. However, based on the very little data you have given, I would say that if you are unwilling to put forth extra time in the water (and at your speed, the ROI wouldn't be worth it anyway), then the best way for you to get faster would be to make sure you have good hydrodynamics (body position) and to swim faster. That means harder intervals. High stroke rate, as in strokes per minute, is a consequence of faster swimming and not a cause.

Think about it... If you are currently doing 15 strokes per 25, that is 60 strokes per hundred (but as Mulk pointed out above, the actual rate is faster due to turning and gliding). You are doing that 100 on ~1:20. Now, if you can get your time down to 1:00 per 100, there is a high probability that you will still be taking 15 +/- 1 strokes per 25. But, your stroke rate per minute has actually increased. The 'best OW swimmers' that others are using as role models are swimming faster than you and I but are probably taking a similar number of strokes (+/- 2) per 25. Their stroke rate is faster because they are faster and not the other way around. (Plus, I'd bet you can find a great number of things that they do better than us instead of focusing on stroke rate.) When they slow down, their stroke rate per minute decreases but their number of strokes per length will be rather consistent. Such is the nature of swimming.

So focus on getting faster. Don't focus on counting strokes or ramping up your stroke rate. The rest will take care of itself.

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Wow. This makes it clear you are utterly ignorant and have never sat down and watch a highly successful high turnover swimmer in your life. Spend like 10 seconds watching video of mid-race Laure Manaudou at her peak- she appears to be an utterly indifferent two beat kicker who barely moves her legs at all. It's a highly efficient and deceptive kick, but a very light kick nonetheless compared to the utter motorboat kick you see in a highly successful long stroke guy like Ian Thorpe.

My favorite demo video for this. Laure is second from the camera, and Otylia J., who is a long stroke/high kick swimmer in front of her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oac5nUDns94

The only men here who could match either of these two in the water were the folks who were US Olympic Trials or better in their pure fish days.

I'm with you on this, although ill continue to tinker with the higher stroke rate during warmup. All out I can do a 100 in 1:10. I totally agree on harder intervals. I don't push as much as I shoulda only due to laziness on a sense. Once I gve up the IM and focus on short distance, the swim will be much more of a factor. At that time ill focus more on my swim.

Right now I can get better gains focusing on biking and running for the longer distances. For a short race, knocking 1-2 minutes off is a lot and I can do as easy as taking 1-2 off my 10k time.

In the end I agree with what most people are saying here, but its all individual in the end. Ill continue to tinker and swim straight or at least try. I love swimming and may even take a lesson. I really appreciate everything I have learned on this particular string.

THIS^^^ The guy in the video John Kenney posted, Arthur Fraylor, is doing around 108 str/min but he also doing a 4:24 for his 500. If I could turn over that fast, I too could hold 53 sec per 100, but I just can't turn my arms over fast enough.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Great video selection Jill. If I counted correctly, Laure is taking about 50 str/50m lngth, in a net of about 25 sec, or around 100 str/min. Of course, she's going 1:56 for 200 LCM and setting the WR, so of course she's going to have a high str/min.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Instead of saying"in my opinion"I should of said"in my EXPERIENCE". In other words when I swim the only way to get a good result(and it still lousy)from high stroke swimming is to pull as hard as I can and kick as hard as I can. The problem is I cannot pull or kick that hard,lol! That is why I like my low stroke technique.

John - When you're going 4:30-ish for the 500, is your stroke rate similar???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you need to kick hard in order to get from point A to point B, then you still haven't managed to fix any underlying body position issues.

I maxed out around 95-100 for a red-line effort. I could throw 105-108 strokes, but there would be some slippage at that point and I would lose time. Arthur is the only guy I've ever seen (not to say there aren't others) that high who isn't just "spinning his wheels".

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

My point was I DON"T kick hard! I don't pull hard I don't kick hard. I do my low stroke technique that does not rely on kicking or pulling. I PUSH my way through the water. It is way easier in my experience then a high stroke,hard pull technique. Apparently not everyone kicks hard with the high stroke style. Again,in my experience,that is stll harder then a low stroke,easy kick style.

So...in other words you are taking the path of least resistance and accepting that you are going to have mediocre to poor swim times. That's fine, but to turn around and advocate that for everyone else as you are doing is misinformed at its most charitable.

John

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Thank you,for your post! That is EXACTLY what my technique is,"the path of least resistance"! I spent months and months trying to learn high stroke swimming. In my experience it was way to hard and I was still slow as hell and I just got totally fed up. I went down to the library and found a book on Total Immersion. I said"this looks interesting",but could not figure out what the hell the technique ACTUALLY was. His explanation was way to complicated. So I spent more months trying to figure out what his theory was. I am STILL not sure if mine and his is the same,lol. Anyhow I finally figured out my"path of least resistance"style and it is an easy,relaxing,fun,low stroke,easy pull,easy kick,style. The reason I go on about it is I went through so much hassle just to find out what is,in my experience,an easy,fun way to swim(as opposed to"the path of most resistance"method,lol)is I want everyone to TRY both methods then make up their mind. And also what I said is you can go fast with both methods it just takes more practice to find the"least resistance".

Well stated. For anyone that wants to suck at swimming and put in as little effort as possible to improving, TI is definitely worth the look.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

So, you must be taking around 16 str/lngth, after the first 50, when you settle into your pace???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Most of us do this every single time we get in the water, we just refer to your method as the warmup.

Something like that. Maybe more like 17-18 as I never got much length off my turns.

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John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events

Yes,I have noticed other swimmers doing my method as a"warmup"or a"drill". They turn on one side then kick for a while then turn on the other side for a while. They are doing my method in SLOW MOTION! I tell them to keep doing it that way but SPEED IT UP,lol. In other words,turn on your side,feel your balance point for a second or two then SNAP your other arm forward and PUSH your way through the water,feel your balance point on your other shoulder and repeat. I find it works best to breath every 2 out of 3 strokes. A few people have listened to me and followed my advice(shocking I know,lol)and they agree it is certainly easier and with practice they are just as fast as before.

"A few people have listened to me and followed my advice(shocking I know,lol)and they agree it is certainly easier and with practice they are just as slow as before."

I fixed that for you... ;)

Thanks!!lol! BUT they are way more relaxed,having more fun,saving their shoulders,doing a lot less strokes,kicking less hard,more relaxed,pulling less hard etc.etc. Maybe none of them will ever be nearly as great a swimmers as many here on Slowtwitch but that sounds impossible anyway,lol!

You all need to get noodles...WAY EASIER...you don't have to kick or pull...hell, you don't even have to "SNAP"...just float and fart in the opposite direction you want to go...this may be WAY more fun as you could also bring a six pack...totally relaxed...

All right hotman, just tell us how fast you are. 15 years ago I was a collegiate HM All-American (D3 and relays only, not individuals) and last week I did 2 x 1500's on 20:00 went 19:25 and 19:14 in meters; right now I am reasonably confident I can break 18:00 in a 1500M swim. In races where I enter in AG, I have never not had the fastest swim in my AG. I've had the fastest overal swim in several triathlons, some of them with more than 1000 entrants. I am pretty decent, but there are lots of guys (and a few gals) who are faster than me, and none of them swim anything like what you are recommending.

So put it out there. You seem to be basing your conclusions on how "fast" you are (calling others slow, really?). So what have you done?

Because triathlon has a relatively low standard for swimming, guys who are the equivalent of 25 minute 5k runners think they actually know something. Thre reason you didn't have success with high stroke rate is because you aren't fit enough.

I already regret getting into this....