High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ??

Nov 18, 14 6:12

Post #1 of 71 (12633 views)

Currently shedding coach #3, finished reading Tri Bible, Tri Science, Going Long, and another 5-10 I won't list

Without coaching was training a high volume, moderate intensity approach 200 miles a week on the bike 20 miles+ a week on the run, interspersed with this moderate intensity was intervals of high intensity embedded into the high volume runs and rides. I would produce intervals as they came to me naturally in the course of training, if I was feeling good on a run I would punch it for 1-5 miles, if I was feeling rock star on the bike I would litter the entire ride with moderate to very intense intervals.

Even my most intense intervals during my early training were still nowhere near the intensity that I have been doing under the advocacy of the different coaches I have used in the past 6 months. The coaches have pushed me to wander into the land of speedwork, primarily on the runs, and my body has been rejecting this run speedwork with regularity. Two first coaches were whatever... third coach I thought he was onto something, but when I started giving him feedback of injury and pain during training sessions he got all bent out of shape and I couldn't take the endless screaming in my ear as I'm sitting and icing my back,.... not cool.

Any thoughts and feelings about these two general training approaches ? Can I achieve substantial speed gains in my run without pushing my speed runs at times into the sub 6 min/mile area ? Although I can and have produced a 5:51 mile I always produce an injury in the process. I'm tired of losing training time to short term overuse injury... is there a balance ??? Do I really need a coach to get injured,,.. pretty sure I can do it on my own..

I have been training consistently since August, longest rides 80 miles, longest runs 15 miles, prior to endurance training had done strength training for about 8 months nothing prior to that.. 31 yr old 160 lb

Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46

Last edited by: dizzyingpaces: Nov 18, 14 6:16

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 6:33

Post #2 of 71 (12593 views)

Look up polarized training or search for it on here. I will post another response with some links.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 6:38

Post #3 of 71 (12578 views)

Finding a coach is easy, finding a good coach is not. That said a few things stick out...

Body rejecting speedwork is typically a sign that the other work is of too high intensity. Before you can train hard you need to learn to train easy - J. Friel

Injury is also typically a sign of doing too much, too hard, too fast and if a coach is not recognizing this and instead yelling at you, well "not cool" is a polite way of saying it ;)

You might want to look into polarized training (Google it) or interview a few coaches, tell them (in detail) what you're experiences have been and pick the one that gives you the best advice on how they would work with you.

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 6:39

Post #4 of 71 (12573 views)

Here is the main thing you want to check out:

Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=seiler;#4931310

There is a link in there to a video you should absolutely watch and which will give you a great introduction to this training approach.

Here is a more recent thread including a newer study comparing different training approaches:

Joe Friel: Polarized Training Update
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=friel;#5314619

If you look hard enough you'll find other tidbits on here and a quick Google will reveal much more as well.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [Staz] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 6:48

Post #5 of 71 (12545 views)

As a cycling coach I will agree with the posts above. If your body is rejecting the intervals there is one of a couple things going on:
1. The numbers are unreachable
2. The intervals are undoable
3. You are being given far too many hard interval sessions.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 6:51

Post #6 of 71 (12539 views)

Tell us more about your training and racing, are you a ironman athlete? If so then 200mi of biking and 20mi of running is not even close to high volume training.

~

Eric - "Train Smart, Race Smart, Finish Strong"

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [ejchet] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 7:51

Post #7 of 71 (12434 views)

ejchet wrote:

Tell us more about your training and racing, are you a ironman athlete? If so then 200mi of biking and 20mi of running is not even close to high volume training.

~

Yes, this was my thought. Well, it is *close* for amateur purposes but not there. You can absolutely get faster by mostly just plodding along slowly a lot. But you gotta do it a lot.

And on the bike don't go too slow. Work a little bit.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [ejchet] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:00

Post #8 of 71 (12420 views)

Thanks everyone for the replies !! Going to start reviewing the Polarized Training links now, will let you know how that goes. My racing experiences thus far are few and far between, I've done a 10K event, and a 2/10/2 duathlon. I'm training for Ironman Lake Placid in July and have set my sites on a time around 10 hours, I figure their's no point in setting goals that are guaranteed attainable. I prefer setting the goal at a reach and if I fall short I can live with that. I've been told time and time again by the coaches I have used that I'm overtraining and they have all attempted to shift me to lower volume and higher intensity and all of those efforts have ended with me injured and out of consistent training for 1-2 weeks.

My training volumes have run around 200 miles per week on the bike and 20 on the run. This is moderate to hard exertion on all/most efforts, with "organic" intervals embedded into these sessions as I felt good enough to produce them. I don't have trouble pushing myself hard in an interval, if anything I have trouble reigning myself in on ALL workouts. It took me several months just to stop running like a zoo animal off the line so I could even complete a 15+ mile run effort. I self coached myself to learn how to pace, so I could complete an 80 mile ride in one shot and still feel fresh off the bike, but I have also been coached to unlearn that pacing structure in pursuit of higher intensity efforts. Some or most or perhaps ALL of this can be blamed on myself to be perfectly honest. One of my first runs with last coach was as follows.

1 mi WU
2,3,4 @ 7:00
1 mi easy
6,7 @ 6:30
1 mi CD

I was told to execute this on a flat course, which is easier said than done when you live in a town called "Dix Hills" So I attempted this on the block that I usually run (approx 200 ft of rolling climbs) and ended up blowing up from upper body(shoulder) cramping as I came up the first ascent at 6:30 min/mile. Basically if I go out with FAST on my brain, I hit the ground running, trying to go slow when the theme of the workout is speed is a problem for me ("sounds like a personal problem")

So....while I like the idea of coaching and being given a structured approach by people vastly more experienced than me, I simultaneously do not like the adverse way that my mind/body respond to external structure placed on the workout. I have gotten really good at scaling back or terminating a training session in anticipation of an injury possibly occurring. Under coached training sessions I am so mentally married to the theme of the training session that I will ignore my body, almost like I would during a race situation where I would push through any pain and discomfort (within reason) in the spirit of the moment. This has resulted in at least a month of lost quality training time for me over the last 3-4 months. I'm sick of losing time to injury, and I'm sick of listening to a coach yap my ear off about my overtraining volume while pushing me into low volume High intensity "overtraining" and resulting injury. ...

Hope that gives you a little more background on my situation ... Thanks again guys,, gonna go check out links on polarized training

Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:17

Post #9 of 71 (12387 views)

20-25mpw isn't high volume running..for a triathlete...of any distance...if they want to do well consistently.

Go with answer B

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:18

Post #10 of 71 (12384 views)

@Jackmott, I have worked my self up to holding around 19-21 mph on flat courses on the bike, but tend to put most of my rides between 3-4k feet of total ascent (avg speed around 17mph). My recent FTP was 260W for 20 minutes and avg heart rate of 175 bpm the avg speed was 22.8 mph @ body weight around 165 lb.

this is a typical ride I would do on a saturday morning http://www.strava.com/activities/208804088 not sure if its ok for me to post a strava link... but anyway ... so this ride was 63 miles 3.5 hours, and 3300 ft of climbing avg speed 17.7mph , avg heart rate was 143 on this ride, which is kind of low for me on a hard ride (i can hold a heart rate north of 155 on the bike for awhile)...

this ride was done the day immediately before my first 2/10/2 duathlon and I might have been "attempting" to dial back the intensity,, although that plan rarely works

just trying to give you guys a little peak into what kind of athlete i might be ... because I have no idea what kind of athlete I am... i just know I'm a glutten for punishment, and love to bury myself in every training session ... allegedly this is called overtraining . ;)

http://www.strava.com/activities/211614676

this is another ride I would typically do

62.1mi
Distance
3:31:46
Moving Time
3,225ft
Elevation (?)[/url]
152
Extreme Suffer Score

165W
Estimated Avg Power
2,092kJ
Energy Output

Show Less
AvgMaxSpeed17.6mi/h38.3mi/hHeart Rate149bpm169bpmCadence81117Calories2,332Elapsed Time3:56:58

Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:20

Post #11 of 71 (12378 views)

260 watt 20 minute power at your size, on 200 miles a week, sounds like you are an average joe like me!

Those numbers can get better though.
I'm not any kind of triathlon coach though, you might find getting the running up to 30 miles a week does wonders, especially if you don't like/can't tolerate speed work.

I would still try to do at least 1 hard run a week of some kind though

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:22

Post #12 of 71 (12367 views)

If I can produce a 40 minute 10K and feel comfortable doing distance runs at around 7:00-7:30 min/miles where should the bulk of my running be at .... I would love to do 3 runs a week at 10 miles 7:15 min/mile pacing. ... I've been told this far out from my A race of Placid that this is overtraining "defined" ... I happened to think this was just about right ,,, at least if I want to produce a worthwhile effort on race day ... I have been reigned in from 30 MPW under the all of the coaches I have had ....

Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:24

Post #13 of 71 (12360 views)

I love the hard runs ,,..and I know I'm pretty avg Joe,, my first real bike ride and real run was about 5 months ago ... a real ride is 60+miles and a real run is anything over 10 miles ... and I LOVEEEE the long stuff.. i love to grind it out ... but I just blow myself up anytime I try to execute the High Intensity lower volume stuff that seems to be all the rave these days ;)

Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:36

Post #14 of 71 (12331 views)

I always did best with high volume, little intensity...when I tried less volume and more intensity or adding more intensity to the high volume I just got over-trained.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 8:41

Post #15 of 71 (12312 views)

dizzyingpaces wrote:

I love the hard runs ,,..and I know I'm pretty avg Joe,, my first real bike ride and real run was about 5 months ago ... a real ride is 60+miles and a real run is anything over 10 miles ... and I LOVEEEE the long stuff.. i love to grind it out ... but I just blow myself up anytime I try to execute the High Intensity lower volume stuff that seems to be all the rave these days ;)

You've only been endurance training since August this year and you've been injured a few times since then? I would say that you're not doing too badly with 260W over 20mins and a 41min 10k time.

Maybe up the run mileage a bit (10% a week?), do one fast run (intervals?) a week and a weekly 2x20mins at FTP on the bike and keep everything else relatively easy.

Good luck, I reckon you will do really well at your IM next year if you train sensibly and reduce the instances of injury.

Andy G

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 9:15

Post #16 of 71 (12250 views)

Screaming in your ear?

With your short training history, and history of injuries; I think your A number one goal needs to be consistency. Week after week of knocking out the miles / yards. I suspect that other coaches, reading your story are going to say the same thing. Your run volume is low considering your goals, so do what is necessary to get that number up consistently. If that means a lack of hard intensity, then that is fine for now.

If it turns that for one reason or another 20 mpw is a hard limit for you, then you'll want to work in intensity to the extent that you can. But first figure out if 20 mpw is in fact a hard limit, increase it over the course of several weeks.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 9:34

Post #17 of 71 (12217 views)

I would listen to Kevin in MD. He's a smart dude and just gave you very sage advice

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 10:01

Post #18 of 71 (12157 views)

If you did 260w for 20 min, than your FTP is not 260, it's ~245 depending on what kind of work you did before the test started. Search on here, you'll find lots of discussion of FTP testing protocol.

Also, if you're going 22.8 on 260 watts, I would look at your setup. I recently did an Oly at that speed, and averaged ~190 watts (although I'm a little smaller at ~145 lbs).

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 10:17

Post #19 of 71 (12125 views)

Quote:

If I can produce a 40 minute 10K and feel comfortable doing distance runs at around 7:00-7:30 min/miles where should the bulk of my running be at .... I would love to do 3 runs a week at 10 miles 7:15 min/mile pacing. ... I've been told this far out from my A race of Placid that this is overtraining "defined" ... I happened to think this was just about right ,,, at least if I want to produce a worthwhile effort on race day ... I have been reigned in from 30 MPW under the all of the coaches I have had ....

You want to do 30 mpw on 3 runs? Do it on 5-6.

From what you've written, it kind of sounds like you basically race every workout which is why you're getting injured. Like Kevin in MD said, focus on consistency. Dial back the intensity and work on the consistency and that will build durability which will help you handle the harder efforts. You'll be surprised how much you'll gain with consistent training even if you're not doing much intensity, especially when you're just starting out.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

DreamBigTriCoac

Nov 18, 14 10:34

Post #20 of 71 (12092 views)

Another thought that doesn't look like its been mentioned. What kind of strength training are you doing along with your sport work? If your having injury after injury, you need to address some imbalances I would suspect. A solid base of endurance is key before intensity, but so is a functional strong body.

Owner of Dream Big Triathlon Coaching LLC
http://www.dreambigtriathloncoaching.com/

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [DreamBigTriCoac] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 10:49

Post #21 of 71 (12050 views)

Is it always the same type of injury or different? Along with strength work, stretching/foam rolling/massage/sleep/etc might also help.

With your next coach you may want to put together an injury prevention plan and that can be your homework before doing key sessions. So let's say your injury prevention plan includes strength and stretching work, you could make sure you've done that before you do the key session, delaying the session if needs be. As a bunch of people said consistency of training should be high in your list of priorities.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [Staz] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 11:15

Post #22 of 71 (11997 views)

Staz wrote:

Look up polarized training or search for it on here. I will post another response with some links.

I don't think "polarized" training is the way to go with 200 mi/week of training. Polarized training is nothing new and has worked really well for pros that are putting in a lot of hours. Obviously if you are putting in the hours they do, the majority of your training would have to be Z2 or lower.

For normal folks that can't train that many hours you are much better off with predominantly Z3/Z4 training during the offseason.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 11:24

Post #23 of 71 (11973 views)

mcmetal wrote:

Staz wrote:

Look up polarized training or search for it on here. I will post another response with some links.

I don't think "polarized" training is the way to go with 200 mi/week of training. Polarized training is nothing new and has worked really well for pros that are putting in a lot of hours. Obviously if you are putting in the hours they do, the majority of your training would have to be Z2 or lower.

For normal folks that can't train that many hours you are much better off with predominantly Z3/Z4 training during the offseason.

Not true.
Polarized training works well on every levels. It is used a lot in youth endurance sports with great success.

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]

Dave Latourette

Nov 18, 14 11:28

Post #24 of 71 (11964 views)

It look like Brian / Kevin & "Squid" have got you rolling in the right direction ... I'll add a couple bits

* Donl;t try to classify your training as Hgh intensity / volume / polarized etc. ... you need to choose what works to keep you healthy, able to consistently do sessions and allows you to arrive 10-14 weeks out form LP to the proper work for you leading in to that race

You asked about what paces you should be running? My suggestion would be: don't do any sustained hard runs ... I wouldn't even exceed 8min miles EXCEPT do strides (4-6 x 10sec is plenty) after every run & be sure to mix up the terrain for added stimulus. When you can run 30 miles a week over 5 runs ((with gradual progression to get to that point) the you'd start to consider session like 7-10 x 30sec fast hill reps @ 90sec recoery an / OR short broken tempo runs

Stay healthy!

-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Re: High Intensity Training VS high volume training w/ some strategically placed intensity ?? [Halvard] [ In reply to ]

Nov 18, 14 11:35

Post #25 of 71 (11951 views)

Halvard wrote:

mcmetal wrote:

Staz wrote:

Look up polarized training or search for it on here. I will post another response with some links.

I don't think "polarized" training is the way to go with 200 mi/week of training. Polarized training is nothing new and has worked really well for pros that are putting in a lot of hours. Obviously if you are putting in the hours they do, the majority of your training would have to be Z2 or lower.

For normal folks that can't train that many hours you are much better off with predominantly Z3/Z4 training during the offseason.

Not true.
Polarized training works well on every levels. It is used a lot in youth endurance sports with great success.

It really depends on how you define "great success". It also depends on the strengths and weaknesses of the given athlete. With only 200 miles a week, you will get much more bang for your buck doing Z3 and Z5 intervals. The main reason for the success of HVT+HIIT is that it allows you do properly do the HII. With only 200 miles a week, doing Z3 + Z5 intervals should not be an issue.

Even on Friel's page where he discusses polarized training he pretty much says THR is the way to go for "Intermediate and less experienced" athletes.

Intermediate and the less experienced of the advanced athletes may make great gains by training with the THR group�s method�lots of time at about AnT. This way is somewhat similar to what Coggan proposes with his �sweetspot� training methodology with 2 x 20-minute intervals at 88-93% of FTP with 5-minute recoveries. I�ve seen a lot of athletes improve by training that way.

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