Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel

Jun 29, 16 22:56

Post #1 of 29 (3057 views)

I am looking to do a special project and build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc. The question is I don't know a lot about wheel building and spokes. I have decided on:

Rim: Velocity Quill (415g) 24 hole
Hub: Enve Carbon Hub with Ceramic Speed bearings (158g) 24 hole
Disc cover: Catalyst (~180grams)
Rim Tape: Silca Rim Tape (~5 grams)

The question I have is about spoke nipples and spokes. I was thinking of using Sapim Super Spoke Bladed as they weigh about 3/4 of a gram less than CX-Ray spokes. Is this going to come back and bite me at all? I was also planning on using DT Pro Lock Hex Nipples

Spoke Nipples??? Sapim Super Spoke Bladed (3.6g each)
Spokes??? DT Pro Lock Hex Nipples (.36g each)

Also any recommendations for a wheel builder in Madison, WI? I was thinking someone at CronoMetro has to know what they are doing.

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Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 29, 16 23:49

Post #2 of 29 (3015 views)

From memory the Sapim Super Spoke's use a different type of steel and production method to the standard CX-Ray to increase durability/strength. Thay have a higher strength rating at the middle of the spoke than CX-Ray, not sure what it's like at the nipple thread though which is where you;d most likely break a spoke, although the polyax nipples to help with that to a degree. They're not bladed, though I think they're double butted. No problem if you're putting a cover over the top though. I'd say they should be ok.

For nipples I would go the Sapim aluminum polyax @ 0.31g. For rims are you absolutely sold on the Quill's? You can also get Stans Alpha 340's which are 385g each. They are a little narrower though than the Quill.

If you want lightweight hubs, why not go Extralight at 134g?

My build would be -

Rims: Stans Alpha 340 (385g)
Hub: Extralight (134g)
Cover: Catalyst (180g)
Rim tape: Veloplugs
Spokes: Sapim Super Spokes (3.6g - for 260mm length, depending on what is needed for the build will change)
Nipples: Sapim aluminium polyax (0.31g)

Total weight for a 24 hole drilling would be around 792g. I would play on the safe side though and go for a 28 drilling for an extra 15g, you'll get much more stiffness and durability.

If you're sold on the Quill rim, you could still keep that and do the above build to keep it under 900g

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 0:59

Post #3 of 29 (2981 views)

The Catalyst Arsenal disc (aluminum rim with carbon cover held by magnets) is 940 grams; it's built with cx ray's but I think you may ask a custom build with lighter spokes+nipples combo ans shave off some weight

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 2:25

Post #4 of 29 (2948 views)

If he just want the disc it might shave off some grams to use tape / Velcro instead of magnets.

-shoki

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 2:36

Post #5 of 29 (2939 views)

Geometry of the enve hub doesn't lend to stiffness (unless you're always going to build with stiff, deep rims like Enve). Would want quite a bit more metal between hub and rim than is offered by the superspokes.
Rims - if you're going to glue the cover on - ask Velocity, Pacenti and Kinlin if they'll supply a rim drilled for internal nipples - that way the disc can be trued without taking the cover off.
Otherwise it doesn't really matter, though I'd look for which option will give the best interface with the cover rather than who is the lightest.

I'd go the Extralite Cyberrear SL hub - it's lighter and will build a stiffer wheel. Also a lot cheaper. And is available in 28H

This way you can hit your weight target and have a wheel that won't bend into the frame (which is what I'd expect from enve hub with 24 skinny spokes to a low profile rim). Then use veloplugs and some carbon-ti skewers

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 6:52

Post #6 of 29 (2852 views)

You can get this to sub 800 by using Stits ultralight aircraft covering and gluing it to the rim. Use an iron to get it as tight as a drum, and it is pretty darn tough (a lot like rip-stop nylon). I have used the hex head nipples. I made a special tool (VERY easy to do) with a spare spoke to thread on the nipples to the spokes. Definitely go with bladed spokes, as it is much easier to stress relieve them, and also see if you have any wind-up on them when building. I don't have experience with the velocity rim or the Enve hub, but the ceramic bearings are a waste of money...but if you have it, sure. Are you going to go with an asymmetric lacing (i.e. 16 drive, 8 non-drive)? This might also get the spoke count down, while still maintaining strength.

Stephen J

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

I am looking to do a special project and build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc. The question is I don't know a lot about wheel building and spokes. I have decided on:

Rim: Velocity Quill (415g) 24 hole
Hub: Enve Carbon Hub with Ceramic Speed bearings (158g) 24 hole
Disc cover: Catalyst (~180grams)
Rim Tape: Silca Rim Tape (~5 grams)

The question I have is about spoke nipples and spokes. I was thinking of using Sapim Super Spoke Bladed as they weigh about 3/4 of a gram less than CX-Ray spokes. Is this going to come back and bite me at all? I was also planning on using DT Pro Lock Hex Nipples

Spoke Nipples??? Sapim Super Spoke Bladed (3.6g each)
Spokes??? DT Pro Lock Hex Nipples (.36g each)

Also any recommendations for a wheel builder in Madison, WI? I was thinking someone at CronoMetro has to know what they are doing.

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

Last edited by: stephenj: Jun 30, 16 7:08

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 7:50

Post #7 of 29 (2796 views)

Call (or better yet visit) Jeff Verink at Stonehall in Monroe. http://www.stonehallbicycle.com/contact.html

I know it's not exactly Madison, but the more you find out about Jeff, the more you will be amazed as to how he wound up in Monroe. He's got tools and experience nobody in Madison has. I have come up from Rockford to visit him. I doubt he knows what a disc cover even is, but he knows wheel building.

Last edited by: dangle: Jun 30, 16 7:56

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [rock] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 9:32

Post #8 of 29 (2733 views)

rock wrote:

From memory the Sapim Super Spoke's use a different type of steel and production method to the standard CX-Ray to increase durability/strength. Thay have a higher strength rating at the middle of the spoke than CX-Ray, not sure what it's like at the nipple thread though which is where you;d most likely break a spoke, although the polyax nipples to help with that to a degree. They're not bladed, though I think they're double butted. No problem if you're putting a cover over the top though. I'd say they should be ok.

For nipples I would go the Sapim aluminum polyax @ 0.31g. For rims are you absolutely sold on the Quill's? You can also get Stans Alpha 340's which are 385g each. They are a little narrower though than the Quill.

If you want lightweight hubs, why not go Extralight at 134g?

My build would be -

Rims: Stans Alpha 340 (385g)
Hub: Extralight (134g)
Cover: Catalyst (180g)
Rim tape: Veloplugs
Spokes: Sapim Super Spokes (3.6g - for 260mm length, depending on what is needed for the build will change)
Nipples: Sapim aluminium polyax (0.31g)

Total weight for a 24 hole drilling would be around 792g. I would play on the safe side though and go for a 28 drilling for an extra 15g, you'll get much more stiffness and durability.

If you're sold on the Quill rim, you could still keep that and do the above build to keep it under 900g

The Enve hub comes with a ceramic speed bearings. I realize that ceramic bearings are very expensive for the return, but I fight for all marginal gains. As for the Quill, the Quill is 21.1 wide internally. I am on board with super-wide rims, the ride is amazing. The idea is that 21.1 will give me ever more confidence riding and save me speed in turns. In addition, that Stans is only 22m deep, you need at least 24mm for the disc covers.

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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Jun 30, 16 9:33

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 15:44

Post #9 of 29 (2628 views)

The marginal gain between a ceramic speed cartridge bearing and a top quality steel cartridge bearing is likely in the vicinity of 0.1w. If you want to go the whole hog on marginal gains, get an Extralight hub and switch out the bearings for Gold Race. They don't need lube (well at least if you don't want them to last that long), but if you do want to lube them throw in the CeramicSpeed TT 'grease'. In fact the savings between a Gold Race and CeramicSpeed is probably higher than a CeramicSpeed to a high quality steel bearing.

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [rock] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 15:47

Post #10 of 29 (2622 views)

bike hub store ?

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Swanbird] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 15:55

Post #11 of 29 (2608 views)

Not sure where you get them from, I'd probably order them online from somewhere if I was going to get some.

Or are you asking if I work for bike hub store? No I don't, I don't even know who they are

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 20:05

Post #12 of 29 (2528 views)

You can do this and have it under 900g.

This plus 160g of Catalyst = sub 900.

I do know that you want to get something that has a wider rim so that you can achieve better RR. If you can find a light deeper rim you can have a lighter catalyst cover. Just depends on if you want that 20g on the rim or on the cover.

I would go with veloplugs for sure, you can get some light hubs cheap, it is the rims that have to be as light as possible. What about AM classic rims or Stans.

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 20:15

Post #13 of 29 (2517 views)

Rims - ACRD 2218 Road Tubeless Rim @ 375g

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [BMANX] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 21:06

Post #14 of 29 (2495 views)

BMANX wrote:

You can do this and have it under 900g.

This plus 160g of Catalyst = sub 900.

I do know that you want to get something that has a wider rim so that you can achieve better RR. If you can find a light deeper rim you can have a lighter catalyst cover. Just depends on if you want that 20g on the rim or on the cover.

I would go with veloplugs for sure, you can get some light hubs cheap, it is the rims that have to be as light as possible. What about AM classic rims or Stans.

I think I really want to go with the Quill Rim. At 415 grams it is plenty light and given that it is 21.1 inner, there has to be more material in the first place which is going to add some weight. I would look at a carbon alternative if there was a good one. The Bonty TLRs would be an option if I could secure just a rim.

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Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 16 23:09

Post #15 of 29 (2461 views)

http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/227.htm

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 16 0:16

Post #16 of 29 (2433 views)

Hi Thomas,

Just took delivery of a 845g clincher aluminum rimmed carbon disc. Not sure if this is of interest, or if your project is to build your own. The wheel is the Citec Ultra 8000 made by Citec in Germany - from my . Looks really well made and for sure it feels light. I've paired it with a recon cassette (85g) and a Conti Supersonic 23mm tyre. The entire wheel comes in at a little over 1000g and feels super. Haven't ridden it in anger yet but will know a bit more about how it rides after this weekends race in Frankfurt.

Best,

Niall

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Behan] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 16 2:35

Post #17 of 29 (2398 views)

As far as I can understand, he's not keen on "solid" discs and wants a spoked one

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [jollyroger88] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 16 9:31

Post #18 of 29 (2285 views)

Yep, that is correct, not keen on a solid disc.

Cheers,
-TG

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Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Behan] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 16 9:38

Post #19 of 29 (2274 views)

Behan wrote:

Hi Thomas,

Just took delivery of a 845g clincher aluminum rimmed carbon disc. Not sure if this is of interest, or if your project is to build your own. The wheel is the Citec Ultra 8000 made by Citec in Germany - from my . Looks really well made and for sure it feels light. I've paired it with a recon cassette (85g) and a Conti Supersonic 23mm tyre. The entire wheel comes in at a little over 1000g and feels super. Haven't ridden it in anger yet but will know a bit more about how it rides after this weekends race in Frankfurt.

Best,

Niall

Niall,

Thank you for your suggestion, but I am looking for

#1 a spoked wheel - they ride better and IMO abuse a body that is about run 26.2 considerably less
#2 a wide wheel - that citec is only 15mm wide, that is less than my firecrest at 16.25. I am going in the opposite direction, I want a wide rim that allows me to run a 23mm tire or 25mm at no aerodynamic penalty. With 15mm wide rim and 23mm I feel like it will have bulbous shape to it - yes trailing edge does matter when it comes to aero.

Although I said I am trying to build a sub-900 gram clincher, what I am really trying to do is build the fastest wheel. That is the main goal with this one. Although Aero and + RR are more easily measured these days, being confident on it and quantifying how much less braking you have to do on corners or descents come into play as well.

I had a Recon Cassette back in the day. Sure it was light, but one miss shift and that advantage is lost. Now I haven't tried it since the days of DI2 and will certainly like to retest it.

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Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Swanbird] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 16 18:19

Post #20 of 29 (2183 views)

Swanbird wrote:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/227.htm

Thanks for the site rec.

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Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 16 20:26

Post #21 of 29 (2133 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Swanbird wrote:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/227.htm

Thanks for the site rec.

they let me buy some unadvertised really light hubs too .

i have built a few wheel sets using their hubs.

one of the unadvertised front hubs i bought from them was 44 grams

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 3, 16 1:07

Post #22 of 29 (1996 views)

This topic has got me massively interested! Always wondered why people don't do this more often. My question is if you were not worried about braking surface (alloy or carbon) how light could it go without being flexy. I have spent the afternoon pricing/adding up the weights, would love some suggestions of what rims to use.

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 3, 16 5:48

Post #23 of 29 (1945 views)

Quick question: is catalyst still making covers? Their website indicates that they're on "backorder".

Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Jul 3, 16 8:34

Post #24 of 29 (1897 views)

GreenPlease wrote:

Quick question: is catalyst still making covers? Their website indicates that they're on "backorder".

Apparently still on backorder.

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Re: Help me build a sub-900 gram aluminum clincher disc wheel [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 3, 16 10:47

Post #25 of 29 (1857 views)

Why bladed spokes if it's for a disc? Aren't butted spokes lighter? Then you don't have to worry about twisting the bladed part.

'J Disc' used to make this wheel. It was really light. They used a cloth backed mylar cover I think. It was glued on. It is like another poster suggested.

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