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Re: HILL TRAING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Oops, sorry. You're quite correct.

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [dre125038] [ In reply to ]
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I love hills but achilles problems have forced me to try to avoid them as much as I can :(
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a session I try to do at least 2x per week:

On a treadmill, w/u 10 minutes, the go 3 minutes at 10K pace @ 4% incline, then go 3 minutes at 1% recovery pace. Repeat 4 times. cool down 10 minutes.

To make it more challenging and to develop race skills, at thend of each interval, you can go 1% for 1 minute at 5 k pace off the hill portion.

What do you think? I find this be a great session.
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Re: HILL TRAING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Efficiency is very important in running, cycling, and swimming. Efficiency in carrying out the activity as well as making the best use of precious time to train. If you want to increase your power on the bike then you should try running uphill for extended periods (miles) and up relatively steep hills. You will gain in running and in biking. This type of training is difficult to duplicate unless you live next to a mountain or own a treadmill.
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [dre125038] [ In reply to ]
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http://lydiardfoundation.org/training.html
__________________

VERY good stuff. I'm considering posting some of his slides on a thread by itself.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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It can't be. You live near enough to the Wissahickon to run there, but have not done so? Say you made a mistake! This is the greatest place to trail run with hills in the midatlantic, perhaps the entire east coast!

On December 23rd, I ran (or tried to run) the Four Corners, which is at least 21 miles of endlessly hilly trails that touches each corner of the park. It was totally spectacular, and I intend to do it several times this year. I know some people from the Wissahickon Wanderers who run it regularly. On this occasion, it killed me - I walked/hobbled the last 2.5 miles back to Valley Green - but then again I hadn't really run in a couple of months.

I cannot speak highly enough of running on the Wissahickon trails. You've got to get in there Barry.
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [dawhead] [ In reply to ]
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I'll look at it when the weather gets better. It does take me a good 45 minutes to get there. Compare that to 15 minutes to get to the Perkiomen trail.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BArry,
From my house I MUST run down a pretty steep hill to do any running. I can go a few hundred yards up a modest grade, first. So, I go up then down.

I have found that doing severe zig-zags down the hill, like tight slalom skiing turns, focusing the pressure on the lateral aspect of the turns and not the bottom, makes it really easy on my joints. They are all done with 3 steps on either side of the fall line. Part of it, I focus on on the greatest pressure on the inside step in the middle of the turn, and part, on the outside step with a slight bound across the fall line. Don't know, but it works for me. Unfortunately, I have to go up the thing (~9-10%) to get home.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: HILL TRAING - by BarryP [ace1317] [ In reply to ]
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"(OT, but I'll ask anyway: Barry, is e the divine proportion, or are we talking about a difference constant?) "

e is Euler's constant, phi is the divine constant...great thread Barry...as usual.

"Fortitudine vincimus"
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Re: HILL TRAING - by BarryP [runnin'grizzly] [ In reply to ]
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what can I say? as an engineer, I really only know applied mathematics, but I'm always curious about these things...
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Since the thread is here, I'll ask...
I'm in the first week of the 4 week hill stage...I couldn't get out to run the hills in the forest preserve where I usually do my hill "springing/running"...since I had my 2 year old daughter with me...I took her in the jogging stroller for a 60 min run with roughly 7 hills (decent size)...I ran the whole time and really hammered the uphills, slowing down on the down hills...(time ranged from 30 sec to 2 1/2 mins for each uphill)...did I get the same benefits from this run as I would have if I had gotten out to do my hill springing as Lydiard prescribes? Just wondering...I was happy with the run.

"Fortitudine vincimus"
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [runnin'grizzly] [ In reply to ]
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did I get the same benefits from this run as I would have if I had gotten out to do my hill springing as Lydiard prescribes?
_______________________
Probably not......but you probably still got in a pretty good workout. As long as you get in a good, focused session where you are pushing yourself on the hills for a substantial amount of time, then you are 90% there. Unless you are getting paid for this, I wouldn't worry too much about the other 10%. I doubt it will make more than a few seconds difference in the long run.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [dawhead] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]It can't be. You live near enough to the Wissahickon to run there, but have not done so? Say you made a mistake! This is the greatest place to trail run with hills in the midatlantic, perhaps the entire east coast!

On December 23rd, I ran (or tried to run) the Four Corners, which is at least 21 miles of endlessly hilly trails that touches each corner of the park. It was totally spectacular, and I intend to do it several times this year. I know some people from the Wissahickon Wanderers who run it regularly. On this occasion, it killed me - I walked/hobbled the last 2.5 miles back to Valley Green - but then again I hadn't really run in a couple of months.

I cannot speak highly enough of running on the Wissahickon trails. You've got to get in there Barry.[/reply]


I second Dawhead's recommendation/assessment. I live right by them, so I'm getting spoiled, but it's great running.

Oh, the part by Bell's Mill is indeed part of the network.
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [docfuel] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]

I have found that doing severe zig-zags down the hill, like tight slalom skiing turns, focusing the pressure on the lateral aspect of the turns and not the bottom, makes it really easy on my joints. They are all done with 3 steps on either side of the fall line. [/reply]

lately, when I have steep downhills with good road conditions and no cars, I just turn around and run them backwrds.
Still at the start of the experiment, we'll see how it goes. kind of fun, though.
-charles
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [Bob Loblaw] [ In reply to ]
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I hope you wear a helmet ;)

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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This fits in so well with what I've been doing recently as I posted in my New training stress thread.

I've been running 45 mpw for several weeks with a mix of intervals and tempo but as soon as I added my short hills in I could feel my runs getting easier after a few sessions. I really feel that they help me much more than the 400's I was doing several weeks ago and are much easier on my body.

Most of my hills are short and take me 30 seconds to 90 seconds to run up, I get about a mile of warm up and half mile of cool down within a 6.5 mile run. Between the hills I run at my easy pace and then put the effort on on the hills. The back side I can recover and work on a bit of foot speed so I seem to get some stress from going up the hill and some technique work going down, kind of a double benifit.

The only thing I don't know now is how long to keep doing them. I think I could have fun on them for a long time.

jaretj
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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From my experience and what I've read, you'll likely only want them in 4 to 8 week chunks. However, it all depends on how your season is set up. I notice that a lot of people who get into triathlon have these uber long seasons put together....ie they want to be in peak condition from April until October, which just isn't realistsic for a runner.

Then you have the people who have no concept of a season and just want to be ready to race at the drop of a hat. Their workouts are ala "flavor of the week."

Typicaly I like to use a base building period, a preparation phase, and a racing phase. This whole cycle should take 4-8 months. Assuming you aren't training for an Ironman, the base is about 40% of that time, the prep phase is 20-30%, and the racing phase is the rest. The hills go in the prep phase. The idea is that, though the hills do make you run stronger, you'll likely want to ditch them for more race specific type training in your racing phase. You'll lose a little bit of your leg strength, but you'll gain racing fitness through interval training.

So, if your cycle is 4 months, do hills for a month. If it's two months, do them for 2 months.

Of course, all of these rules can be thrown out the windiw for many reasons:

- You have a really hilly race coming up ( = more hills)
- You get too beat up on the track but not on the hills ( = more hills)
- You respond really well to hills ( = more hills)
- You don't respond to hills ( = less hills)
- Hills beat you up ( = less hills)
- You only have time for two workouts a week ( = long run and tempo run instead)

etc.



I don't know how complicated your program gets, but if this is too high level, then just make sure you cycle on and off of the hills. ie do hill training for 1-2 months and then do something else in place of it for 1-2 months. Repeat.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I'm doing the Triple T in late May and IMMoo in September so I see hills in my future.

I want to be in relatively good shape for TTT and in peak shape for IMMoo with less than a handfull of races between them.

jaretj
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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There's only one hill that you run twice during the run and I thought it was pretty insignificant.


The Ironman is a whole different beast from any other running event. Your focus will be on weekly mileage and the long run 1st, and then some LT and some hill training only if the 1st two have been taken care of. A hill focus now would probably not be a bad idea, but as you get into your heavy summer training, you'd likely want to shy away from it if it intereferes with your total training volume. Otherwise, if it feels good, a little bit every week should be ok.

This is all conjecture, however. I don't want to sound like I have a wealth of experience in IM training.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Good stuff. Don't forget high speed downhill running (4-6%). There's your plyometric training. Also good to practice relaxation at a quick turnover. Hill should be the steepest you can handle at full speed (not holding back as you would if the hill were too steep).

I'm going to do hill running this spring for the first time in many years. Looking forward to it.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: HILL TRAINING - by BarryP [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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For the IM training I was thinking the same thing.

jaretj
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