Ktalon. Drop me a line.

blevyibr@yahoo.com

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"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars, the rest I just squandered" -George Best

Homemade lemonade: lemon juice, sugar, water, and a pinch of salt. Inexpensive, not gimmicky and works. Grape is good, too.

The context may be important. Do you get the symptoms immediately? after x hrs?, when your hammering?, going "easy?" You mght try a graduated test. How does the stuff sit in a non-exercise environment? If you get a green light, try it on a light or a recovery day. If your still good, keep stepping up the effort and see how the gut responds. I use Accelrade now, only the green stuff, at first I had some difficulty but my gut finally got use to it. There was another thread about mixing simple sugars (gels) and the complex cho's -- could upset the gut -- I'd stay with one product until I knew one way or the other. The nutrition thing can be a bear, but its worth investing the time to get it nailed.

Regards,

Chappy

I'm always careful to start on an empty stomach. Accelerade nails me no matter what. Fruit in general gives me problems, so I'm afraid of the fruit-based remedies. The Powergels are OK as long as I'm not going over 2.5 hours...maybe they're OK for longer than that...but I am really getting hungry at the 2.5 hour point. The Hammergel Sustained Energy has been fine the past couple of weeks, But, I've never tested it for longer than 2 hours until today...at 2 hours it got me...I was mostly under 150 on my Heartrate. It was my long-slow-ride, although I did ride hard (HR160's) for 20 minutes about 1:30 into the ride...shortly after that, the symptoms began.

At two hours, I had to stop for 15 minutes just to de-air...and I never quite fully recovered, although I did get better. Worse of all, I bonked about 30 minutes later...The last 10 miles home was rescued by buying 2 Cokes at a store, drinking them, and resting for 10 minutes. It surprised me that the sugar and caffiene in the Cokes didn't make me worse...I just took the chance because I was cooked. I was able to ride OK after the "pause that refreshes" Coke break...stomach was better, but, not much power in my legs.

Today turned out to be a tough 70 mile ride that was supposed to just be relatively easy. I can race at a HR of 160 for about 2.5 hours without having to actually stop by using Powergel. I don't know about longer than that, but I have a half Ironman coming up and have been trying to find something to do OK for 5.5 hours.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

[reply]I'm always careful to start on an empty stomach.[/reply]

Why do you do that? Isn't that sort of like leaving for a long trip with an empty gas tank?

Anyway........have you ever tried Ensure?

As a rule of thumb, and after enough hard lessons, if I'm at 1/2IM efforts or above and the gut is not emptying I'm going too hard, no matter what PE or HR says. Absorbtion issues are not nearly as critical in efforts 2.5 hrs and under -- that's about where our glycogen stores run-out. In the 1/2 and above you got to fuel the fire even if that means slowing down to do so.

What's been your observed max HR on the bike? If your max was 200, "cruising" at 150 would put you at 75% of max which might be a tad high to fuel on. If your max is less than 200... don't know how many of us (mortals) could fuel efficently if we were at 80% or higher.

That you got the gut to work some when you stopped suggests at least p/o the problem is pace. I'd try a 2.5 hr bike at an avg HR 140-145 follow it up with a 30 min transition run. And try as steady a burn as possible -- stay away from those 160HR x 20 min efforts. It may seem a pedestrian pace on the bike for you but you're dealing with something here that will make or break your race.

One other option, put your HR monitor in your pocket and go by feel. Ride pace determined by your ability to take in and absorb calories. After your ride check you AHR.

Chappy

I started on an empty stomach trying to make sure I didn't have too many things to blame a problem on if I had one. I did drink one dose of the Hammergel Sustained energy 10 minutes before starting, and had two large bottles of it that I drank over the 2.5 hour period before I crashed. I obviously didn't get enough fuel in...see below's response to Chappy.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Chappy, as I aluded to in my original post...it's very possible it isn't a problem with any of these products. I might just be going too hard. My max HR is supposed to be about 175 based on my age (in reality, it is in the low 180's). I KNOW I can race in the 160 range for 2.5 hours and do fine with a couple of Powergels and H20, so I thought 150 and lower would be low enough.

But, at 150, I was barely averaging my "goal" speed, and I got carried away chasing a group of 4 roadies for that 20 minute period...they crossed a major highway where I had to stop and wait for a minute...so I never caught them anyway. In retrospect, this was probably the beginning of the end.

I need to have a different goal, not a goal of maintaining a certain speed, just a goal of keeping my effort low enough to sustain for the race. And being stupid will kill the whole race. Your HR monitor in the pocket trick sounds like a good one. I hope I don't need someone riding with me to hit me in the head to remind me every time I mess up with something so basic, I'm afraid I'd need a new helmet before the ride was over.

As you can tell, I never have a problem with giving a hard effort...but, this is a different animal than the shorter races I'm used to, and too hard efforts will doom the race for me. I'll reload and try again. Thanks!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Carbo,

Based on your info what I miss is any significant electrolyte intake.

I went out for a 46 mi ride followed by a 10 mi run yesterday, and I noticed that it was a lot warmer than previous weekends. When I was done my black shorts had white streaks - salt!

I have gotten really sick on longer efforts in the past but now started to use electrolytes during my trainig and racing, especially important for those efforts that take 1:30+ hours in my case. Gatorade / Accellerade just did not have enough in my case, so I went to a pill format so I can adjust the dosage on the fly.

Electrolyte supplementation is very individual and you will need to find your ideal by experimenting, however, based on my experience any food or drink (sports or otherwise) makes me nauseuas if I am not taking electrolytes; the intake just stays in the stomach without any significant rate of absorption.

It is only going to get warmer/hotter here in the south and White Lake has been known to be hot in May, so get your nutrition/absorption dialed in. Note: I also tried to go out on an empty stomach to alleviate nausea and cramps in the past, it did not work; still got them and I came home exhausted.

If the problem still persists I would suggest a sports nutritionist experienced with IM or endurance events. Two come to mind right here in our neck of the woods.

Take care,

Henk

ps. I had to keep telling myself yesterday to slow it down on the bike, and stay within HR and not to deplete myself for the run. When building for endurance, covering the distance takes well takes precedent over speed.

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Alex Jonker

It is apparent that I didn't process enough fuel, probably because I was going too hard. Electrolytes might help, I don't know. Who are the two sports nutritionists in our area? Thanks!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Well you already know my opinion about electrolytes, and the importance there of (I personally was close to a situation where someone lost their life due to low electolyte intake, and consquent misdiagnosis and lousy treatment; she was not an athlete and elderly). Which brings me to the point that not a lot of GPs understand nutrition, or specific issues; thats why they are GPs.

Nutrition help: I would contact Dr. Scott Greenapple initially ( see www.drgreenapple.com) and I understand that Karl Debate now also has a nurtritionalyst working for/with him (see www.tricoaching.com). In addition his wife is very involved in sports nutrition.

Both the Irondoc and Karl are obviously very aware of the endurance athlete's needs, however, I have not used their services myself. But if the need arose, I would not hesitate to incorporate either one into my training regimen.

Henk (** going to the "Y" instead of 4:00 EZ ride due to crappy weather**)

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Alex Jonker