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Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time

 

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Tom A.

Aug 8, 13 8:00

Post #126 of 221 (3957 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dcrainmaker wrote:
Correct.

I'm just headed out the door now for along ride or two, but all units are now on the newly released firmware (800's/810's), and also, all units now are set to speed (including the one they included).

Are you picking up all the raw data streams with the WASP too?


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


dcrainmaker

Aug 8, 13 8:11

Post #127 of 221 (3937 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, raw data streams will be part of today's ride (headed out to Skyline drive for a few hours).

Depending on timing, I may afterwards head to a place to do some loops around Ft. Hunt park (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...by-position-for.html) merely because I suspect Mr. Chung would like the data for virtual elevation purposes. But again, that does depend a bit on me actually getting out the door... ;)

-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com


RChung

Aug 8, 13 8:13

Post #128 of 221 (3934 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No need to put yourself out on my account if it's inconvenient. I've already done some VE comparisons.


Tom A.

Aug 8, 13 8:18

Post #129 of 221 (3915 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dcrainmaker wrote:
Yes, raw data streams will be part of today's ride (headed out to Skyline drive for a few hours).

Depending on timing, I may afterwards head to a place to do some loops around Ft. Hunt park (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...by-position-for.html) merely because I suspect Mr. Chung would like the data for virtual elevation purposes. But again, that does depend a bit on me actually getting out the door... ;)

Cool.


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


MrSkinny

Aug 11, 13 18:29

Post #130 of 221 (3609 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the ANT+ information!

I was just about to order the power meter when I realized that I should check whether the Vector actually would fit on my bike. Well, it turns out the crank arm to chain clearance is less than 4mm, hence below the 5mm minimum stated in the Garmin Vector Owner Manual. Yet another power meter that doesn't fit me/my bike(s).


nealhe

Aug 11, 13 22:29

Post #131 of 221 (3489 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hello dcrainmaker and All,

http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...tor-vs-powertap.html

Since we all wish for something I am wishing the Vector had SpeedPlay pedals and my check would be in the mail.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster


jab

Aug 12, 13 10:19

Post #132 of 221 (3282 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MrSkinny] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm very interested in the Garmin Vector as a PM that could be transferred btw my various bikes. But, I just viewed the Garmin installation videos and see that the inside edge of the drive side crank needs 5mm of clearance from the chain. I just went and measured five different bikes in our house and none of them have 5mm of clearance. This is with a variety of frames, road & tri, and a variety of cranks, Shimano and FSA. All bikes seem to measure between 2mm to 4mm of clearance. I am wondering if one, the 5mm is a very conservative clearance or is there something unique in the way these bikes are set up, i.e. is the cassette spaced out further than normal. Would like to have more information before I decide to pull the trigger.


jab

Aug 12, 13 20:53

Post #133 of 221 (3090 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jab] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Bump!


Jctriguy

Aug 12, 13 22:14

Post #134 of 221 (3051 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [nealhe] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My local shop had them in stock this morning and the owner said they should be coming with more pedal options next year. He thought Time, Speedplay and maybe Shimano?


SallyShortyPnts

Aug 12, 13 22:15

Post #135 of 221 (3048 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [nealhe] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

nealhe wrote:
Hello dcrainmaker and All,

http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...tor-vs-powertap.html

Since we all wish for something I am wishing the Vector had SpeedPlay pedals and my check would be in the mail.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster


X2

Wag More, Bark Less


Jctriguy

Aug 12, 13 22:24

Post #136 of 221 (3042 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [iank] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

iank wrote:
I can't think of another powermeter that's more universally compatible than the Vectors except maybe the iBike, and that doesn't really count...

What if you don't like Look pedals? Each system has compatibility issues. In many ways, the PowerTap is the most compatible, since every bike uses the same rear wheel standard.


gregtryin

Aug 13, 13 11:44

Post #137 of 221 (2875 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jctriguy wrote:
iank wrote:
I can't think of another powermeter that's more universally compatible than the Vectors except maybe the iBike, and that doesn't really count...


What if you don't like Look pedals? Each system has compatibility issues. In many ways, the PowerTap is the most compatible, since every bike uses the same rear wheel standard.

Well, that's not really true. I have a PT laced into a set of Mavic SL wheels that I can't use right now because the free hub isn't compatible with my 11-speed di2 cassette. I think any power measurement method is going to present different compatibility issues to different people, depending on how and what they ride. The 'best' solution is going to be different for different people.

FWIW,
Greg


chaparral

Aug 13, 13 11:55

Post #138 of 221 (2846 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jctriguy wrote:
In many ways, the PowerTap is the most compatible, since every bike uses the same rear wheel standard.

I am fairly certain that there are both 650c and 700c wheels. Not to mention Campy vs Shimano/Sram and 11s versus 10 speed.


Jctriguy

Aug 13, 13 12:15

Post #139 of 221 (2808 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [chaparral] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Let me know how many people use campy and shimano together. Very strange to have both groupsets running in the same household. Just doesn't make sense for ease of swapping parts. Same for 650 wheels. Not very common these days, you can barely get tires for them anymore.

Probably 80% of people are using shimano 9/10sp right now. Don't think 80% of people are using look pedals. Of the dozen or so people that I ride with regularily, 100% are using shimano/sram 10sp 700c wheels.


(This post was edited by Jctriguy on Aug 13, 13 12:32)


TriPigeon

Aug 13, 13 16:42

Post #140 of 221 (2688 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ray,

Thank you again for all the feedback you've posted here and on your site throughout the entire lifespan of the Vector (over the last couple years). One thing I was curious about: is anyone out on the test group riding them with Q-rings or similar, and if so, are there any strange data skews (obviously we'd expect the data from something like Power2max, etc. to have some serious issues with the asymmetrical rings, but I can't think of any reason for the Vectors to not output meaningful numbers on this end of things - or at least numbers that could possibly start being used to quantify the effect of the asymmetric rings on power output through the stroke).

Again, many thanks!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud member of the GUCrew
Twitter: @tripigeon Blog: Ironpigeon.com
Thoughts on AG sponsorships / community involvement: http://bit.ly/1dQlVDy


geauxtri

Aug 13, 13 19:28

Post #141 of 221 (2608 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Let me know how many people use campy and shimano together

Road bike is Shimano, and Tri bike is Campy. Road is getting upgraded later this year or early next year to Campy.

More pedal choices would be a plus. I currently ride Time, though never tried the Looks. I'm going to have to check with my LBS if he'll have a pair to demo in the shop as I know one local guy around here already has them.


iank

Aug 13, 13 19:38

Post #142 of 221 (2595 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Right, but apart from old as hell bikes (like the beater road bike I tried to buy on Craigslist to use as a commuter), there's 1 standard for how a pedal attaches to your bike (I am pretending side mount pedals are not a real thing here), whether it's a beach cruiser, MTB, CX, road, TT, track, fat bike, etc. Powertap, while it can be built into any wheel, often doesn't come in many wheels such as any Zipps and probably other brands I don't feel like thinking about at the moment. As others mentioned, though, there are different types of wheels such that a Powertap wheelset cannot be transferred between bikes, and quite a few triathletes, particularly smaller women, may have a TT bike with 650s and a road bike with 700; it's really not that uncommon. Others, though I'm not sure I would think it's a good idea, may want to occasionally take them out on a MTB and hope they don't clip one of the pedal pods on a root or a rock. Your road Powertap isn't going to be able to fit that.
I'd venture to guess that you are correct that universal adoption of Powertap would cause fewer equipment changes than universal adoption of Keo-compatible Vectors, but the Keo-Vectors can go on ANY bike (in addition to the fact that Garmin has indicated that it wants to create other pedal platforms and that the Keos are just a starting point). Find me a Powertap that does that.

On another note, I now think it would be fun to see how putting Vectors on an electric bike would make for some funny power readings. Because, you know, we can do that. We can't put an SRM or Quarq or Powertap on one, though. :)



Clermont Fun! | @iank90

(This post was edited by iank on Aug 13, 13 19:42)


dcrainmaker

Aug 13, 13 19:43

Post #143 of 221 (2577 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TriPigeon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

O-Rings were brought up in the meetings. They noted there's no issues with using them and Vector.

-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com


gregtryin

Aug 13, 13 19:51

Post #144 of 221 (2551 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MrSkinny] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

MrSkinny wrote:
Thanks for the ANT+ information!

I was just about to order the power meter when I realized that I should check whether the Vector actually would fit on my bike. Well, it turns out the crank arm to chain clearance is less than 4mm, hence below the 5mm minimum stated in the Garmin Vector Owner Manual. Yet another power meter that doesn't fit me/my bike(s).

Glad you mentioned that little known fact. I suppose it should be mentioned that to check the clearance, it is important to get the chain as far outboard as possible (big ring and last cog on cassette) before pulling out the ruler. Second, if anyone else is using Hollogram Sisl 2 cranks on a Cannondale, you should be OK. I measured mine tonight at .290" with calipers. This is with an 11-speed cassette. The required clearance is 5mm or .20".

Greg


Tom A.

Aug 13, 13 21:38

Post #145 of 221 (2502 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dcrainmaker wrote:
O-Rings were brought up in the meetings. They noted there's no issues with using them and Vector.

Was it clear that they understood the issue? ( i.e. incorrect assumption of constant crank angular velocity)

I recall a quote from an SRM engineer at one time that non-round rings couldn't affect an SRM either, which is demonstrably wrong, and just means he didn't understand the issue.

It seems to me that the way they measure cadence is by watching the gravity vector sweep through the accel readout. Of course, the simplest thing would be to just measure the time between peaks and calculate the average angular velocity, which WOULD cause issues with non-round rings. The only way to avoid that would be if they were calculating the rate of change of the "vector sweep". Did they say or explain which way the were calculating cadence?


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


Y-Tri

Aug 15, 13 18:35

Post #146 of 221 (2301 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TriPigeon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ummm...........
What "issues" with Q-rings and Power2Max?
I have both and love them both!
Working great!
-YT


dcrainmaker

Aug 16, 13 9:25

Post #147 of 221 (2145 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I referred them to this post to read and asked for a bit of clarification, here's what they came back with:

"We are using a single cadence event to calculate power, and do assume constant velocity through each pedal stroke measured. We have the capability in the future to release “micro-cadence” resolution, but do not have a scheduled release date at this time."

-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com


djmercer

Aug 16, 13 9:28

Post #148 of 221 (2138 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Y-Tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Y-Tri wrote:
Ummm...........
What "issues" with Q-rings and Power2Max?
I have both and love them both!
Working great!
-YT

+1


RChung

Aug 16, 13 10:02

Post #149 of 221 (2113 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

djmercer wrote:
Y-Tri wrote:
Ummm...........
What "issues" with Q-rings and Power2Max?
I have both and love them both!
Working great!
-YT


+1


[Update: Uh-oh. See MTM's post below.]

Ray's post verifies that P2M (like many other crank-based PMs) assumes constant rotation. If you can assume constant rotation speed then it simplifies power calculation, which is why manufacturers do it that way. When rotation is constant then all you need to do is get the average torque and multiply it by the (constant) angular velocity to get power. However, *by design* Q-rings don't have constant angular velocity so in order to get the correct power you ought to use the *weighted* rather than *unweighted* average torque where the weights are given by the changing angular velocity. If you don't do that the unweighted average torque for Q-rings will be biased, so the power reported by the PM will also be biased. The amount of bias will depend on how far the true angular velocities are from constant which, in turn, will depend on how eccentric the rings are -- but for "typical" non-round rings the bias will be in the ballpark of 2 or 3% (that is, if you're truly producing 250 watts then a Q-ring equipped power meter that assumes constant angular velocity will read something like 5 or 8 watts high, so unless you're aware of this you might think that a simple change to Q-rings gave you a 5 or 8 watt boost in power). P2M says that they only measure cadence by a single event trigger once per crank cycle so they can't observe changes in angular velocity.

[Edited to add clarification:] This is not a problem that applies only to P2M. It applies to all crank-based power meters that assume constant angular velocity. Because the Polar chain-based power meter measured chain speed and chain tension, it probably would have been immune to this particular problem. Because the Power Tap measures at the rear hub (and wheel rotation speed is typically faster than crank rotation speed) and also because its power measurement is time-based rather than event-based, it also should be less affected by this type of measurement bias.


(This post was edited by RChung on Aug 16, 13 13:46)


trail

Aug 16, 13 10:39

Post #150 of 221 (2063 views)
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Cervfreak] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

>In my case the neuromuscular ability of my left leg to not generate negative torque on the upstroke seems to explain my slight left / right imbalance.

According to Watt Matter's definition, negative torque doesn't sound like something that would be missed all that much.


(This post was edited by trail on Aug 16, 13 10:41)

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Power Meters
What will be your go-to power meter in 2014?
SRM
Quarq
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Stages
Garmin Vector
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Power2max
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None, but will buy one eventually
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