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Garmin Vector release delayed
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AndyF
Apr 11, 12 15:21
Post #26 of 38
(1223 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [nickwhite]
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nickwhite wrote:
AndyF wrote:
nickwhite wrote:
This really sucks. I've been waiting on this thing to come out so I can start bike training.
Fixed that for you. ;-)
Were the italics not enough?
It is customary in the Slowtwitch community to mark all the provocative, annoying, or incendiary comments in red. It just makes it that much more antagonising. ;-)
AndyF
http://alphamantis.com
styrrell
Apr 11, 12 17:13
Post #27 of 38
(1143 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [bartturner]
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A product that has never existed before.
Technically someone built a set in, I think the mide 80s/early 90s, google Frank Fedel. but he never brough them to markey just used them for his own research.
Styrrell
bartturner
Apr 11, 12 17:41
Post #28 of 38
(1117 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [styrrell]
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Woops! Should have said a product never brought to market before and sold broadly.
Power13
Apr 11, 12 17:54
Post #29 of 38
(1098 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [Rappstar]
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Rappstar wrote:
To me, it just seems a like of work for pretty minimal practical gains in the field. .
I think this may be a case of trying to achieve market differentiation. other areas have already been covered, and potentially covered by patents. general rule of thumb - if you are going to offer a new product in an existing market you either need to have a) brand , b) new technology or c) a cheaper product. (or some combination).
By focusing on pedals, they avoid comparisons with PT or crank based systems and can offer the "advantage / differentiation" of measuring L / R forces. they can offer new technology (combined with a brand) to gain a unique place in the market, and hopefully not have to compete on price.
While the real world benefit may be minimal (and I agree with you here), it still gives them something to differentiate from competitive product.
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond
coopdog
Apr 11, 12 17:55
Post #30 of 38
(1091 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [bartturner]
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bartturner wrote:
I totally do NOT agree. Wheels are a lot different than building power meter pedals. A product that has never existed before. Totally differnet, IMHO
Ok, I was referring to the delays to market and free pub on this forum...I don't think that is much different. Level of difficulty is greater, yes.
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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...
alexZA
Apr 11, 12 18:04
Post #31 of 38
(1075 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [AndyF]
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R.I.P Vector
---------
http://www.thealphadaily.com
Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive influence of civilisation. When you see an enemy lying on the ground, what’s your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing, you kick him to death.’ - The Rider, Tim Krabbe.
Rappstar
Apr 12, 12 15:01
Post #32 of 38
(910 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [stevej]
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stevej wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
bartturner wrote:
Considering the delays it also makes you have to consider how reliable this will be when it is finally released. These things tend to go hand in hand.
I'd agree. The problems with putting a powermeter in the pedal are not insignificant.
The pedals are part of the drivetrain, but they are subject to all kinds of non-useful load. You simply don't have that problem with a crank-based or hub-based system. As an example, if you are standing on the pedals - but not pedaling - there is significant load (but no useful work). And you have to parse that out. That's simply a non-issue with the crank. And the whole left/right thing is not easy.
To me, it just seems a like of work for pretty minimal practical gains in the field. Especially since, contrary to what some might have you believe, how you actually apply force to the pedals doesn't seem to matter much in terms of pedaling efficiency. This based on tests in the lab with pedal-based powermeters (that are demonstrably non-portable)...
Am I missing something? What does it matter if the pedals are receiving a non-useful load. Power = torque * angular velocity. If you aren't pedaling, rpm (angular velocity) = 0, therefore power = 0. You shouldn't have to parse anything out.
It matters because it is AVERAGE torque * angular velocity (per cycle). So let's say you go from standing on the pedals to pedaling. Making sure you get the average torque correct is a challenge. Now, certainly, the pedal-based meter has a better sense of real-time pedaling action, but still, when you are talking about a time average, it's not so simple.
The Garmin/Vector/Metrigear folks may have a good answer for why that's not a problem. The person who brought it up as a potential problem to me was Jim Meyer of Quarq, who has a fair bit of experience in addressing the particulars of these things.
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AaronT
Apr 12, 12 17:30
Post #33 of 38
(819 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [Power13]
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I think it's less about R/L and more about ease of moving between bikes. PowerTaps are great until you need a race wheel. Disc, deep, climbing, track? Crank based meters are great unless you race track. Pedals go on any bike!
hidayanra
Apr 12, 12 18:02
Post #34 of 38
(799 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [AaronT]
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AaronT wrote:
Crank based meters are great unless you race track.
really? i don't have that problem with my power meters.
"You have to train to your weak points. Get ready to hurt, son." - FatBoy
Duncan74
Apr 12, 12 18:20
Post #35 of 38
(770 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [hidayanra]
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hidayanra wrote:
AaronT wrote:
Crank based meters are great unless you race track.
really? i don't have that problem with my power meters.
I guess the plural there is the issue. Most people are wanting to invest once for all bikes. Although I would counter that the market for $1500 powermeters is small enough anyway, without needing to design to meet a tiny tiny subset of the market that does road, tri and track.
hidayanra
Apr 12, 12 18:43
Post #36 of 38
(751 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [Duncan74]
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I own a quarq, and it works just fine for my road, TT, & track bikes.
"You have to train to your weak points. Get ready to hurt, son." - FatBoy
corneliused
Apr 12, 12 20:03
Post #37 of 38
(705 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [Rappstar]
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Rappstar wrote:
I'd agree. The problems with putting a powermeter in the pedal are not insignificant.
The pedals are part of the drivetrain, but they are subject to all kinds of non-useful load. You simply don't have that problem with a crank-based or hub-based system. As an example, if you are standing on the pedals - but not pedaling - there is significant load (but no useful work). And you have to parse that out. That's simply a non-issue with the crank. And the whole left/right thing is not easy.
To me, it just seems a like of work for pretty minimal practical gains in the field. Especially since, contrary to what some might have you believe, how you actually apply force to the pedals doesn't seem to matter much in terms of pedaling efficiency. This based on tests in the lab with pedal-based powermeters (that are demonstrably non-portable)...
Right. The cranks see no "non-useful" loads. Standing on the pedals without pedaling wouldn't put a load on the crank arms, just the pedals. And pedaling out of the saddle wouldn't introduce any side loads that could couple into the strain gauges on a crank based power meter and in turn cause errors that would either need to be nulled out or accepted as a shortcoming of the system.
At the end of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
AaronT
Apr 12, 12 20:58
Post #38 of 38
(670 views)
Re: Garmin Vector release delayed [hidayanra]
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hidayanra wrote:
AaronT wrote:
Crank based meters are great unless you race track.
really? i don't have that problem with my power meters.
It can be done, swapping cranks and chainrings and I'm assuming you have a good chainline. It's just not a very elegant solution when you compare it to a pedal swap.
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The New Specialized Wind Tunnel
Will this be a game changer for Specialized, in both sales and product design, or will it not move the sales and design needle versus those in Specialized's competitive set?
Yes, Game Changer
Minor move forward
Won't budge the needle
