Your overall T level is fine, and you sound fine accordingly. Levels range from 270-1070. Free T can easily be elevated through herbal supplements, not banned substances, and normal is above 50 or so. I had my levels checked because my mood was always off, I was constantly exhausted, and no matter how much/little sleep or training I did, nothing effected my energy levels. My overall T was 111, and free T was around 15. I was very low, outside of norm. So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal. I felt a lot better. There is absolutely no "doping" benefit until you peak out way higher than normal range levels. In fact, this whole doping reference is ridiculous. There are legitimate heath risks for men associated with low testosterone, and getting levels back within normal range is healthy and should be done, if you truly were low. Your levels are good, you can change some diet or supplement with accepted herbs to bump your free T, but that's really not necessary since your overall level is fine and you also feel fine.

And maybe to give a little background, I am 41 yrs old, 5'11", was 198 pounds, way overweight (contributing to the low T for sure). Sex drive was totally normal, so when my doctor friend suggested I get it tested due to my other complaints, I laughed it off. But getting the results and then seeing the improvements, I've recommended many of my friends get tested as well.

So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal. I felt a lot better. There is absolutely no "doping" benefit until you peak out way higher than normal range levels. //

I'm glad you are feeling better, I would do the same in your shoes. But "YOU" are absolutely doping in every sense and legality of the word. You see competitive sport is not meant to have a level playing field, it is to sort out those with superior attributes in many different categories. Having a high natural level of T is just one of 100's of those categories. And we as a culture/nation/sport have decided that there are very few things one gets to do to prop up any one or many of those categories, T not being one of them(unless it is so low you can pass the TUE gauntlet).


You did the right thing for you, but it is not legal/ moral by any stretch of the imagination for you to compete in competitive sports that regulate this sort of thing. You along with many others are under the misguided assumption that if you"only" supplement back to normal(whatever that means)levels, you are good to go. You are not good to go, you should know this fact before throwing out things that are absolutely false out there for others to read and perhaps believe..

Therapeutic Use Exemptions exist for a reason, as you mentioned. And I think I painted a picture of a perfect scenario of where a medically appropriate need exists. I do not believe in bumping T levels that are already in the normal range, or are slightly low. But if you fall way outside of normal, and are symptomatic as I was, then there are very real health risks for men, and medically appropriate increases are warranted. So what I said isn't false, but I can appreciate your clarification.

In the same breath, we have people on here who think they are doctors, and are not, and they are giving medical advice. This isn't a black/white answer, and has to be individual based. Although for the OP, his levels are normal and he is asymptomatic, so nothing is needed nor warranted.

And to clarify once more, you assume supplementing to increase T levels can only be done with actual Testosterone. This is false, and I personally do not believe in doing that even when medically necessary. I believe supplementing the body and doing things naturally to help boost this levels are better in the long run, all of which is also not considered doping.

Therapeutic Use Exemptions exist for a reason, as you mentioned. And I think I painted a picture of a perfect scenario of where a medically appropriate need exists. //

You painted a picture but medically needed and TUE are not one in the same. The bar is very high with a TUE, I assume you do not have one? I have friends who put in, and you basically have to be on deaths door to get it. Being just low is not the bar, in fact probably 90+% of those with low T probably get denied a TUE.


I understand your need to justify your actions and feel you in are in the right, and someday you may well be if rules for AG athletes change. But not today. Ive wrestled with this exact scenario as a thought exercise for many, many years, and like you I would take the drugs if it were absolutely about my health. But I also came to the conclusion that my racing days would be over too. It would be fun runs, workouts, and just good surf sessions for the rest of my life after that. At least until and if there were a change in attitude to geezers allowed to dope for sport. Right now there are a lot of guys like you out there competing and kicking ass with their new physiologies. It is the single biggest reason I have taken a sabbatical from most competitive sport, tired and frustrated of getting beat by guys that I never heard of. Not so big a difference at your age, but over 60 the difference of doping is major. You can take a 100th place finisher and make him a national champion in some instances. And there are so many now going to your clinics that the podiums just don't resemble any reality that I can recall anymore...

And strange you say now you did not take T, here was your statement;

So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal.

Yes, I should have clarified that supplemental statement. That was my fault, and I can see where that may have got you fired up. So no, I didn't have a TUE, as I wasn't using actual testosterone. Read the Cody Beals articles that were posted previously, and as that gave a good picture of some of what can be done. Supplementing with artificial T can cause the body to become reliant upon the exogenous T, and slow down even more the natural production. I don't want to be reliant upon exogenous substances hence my desire for a natural approach. Again, sorry for that confusing statement. And I'm by no means "kicking ass" with my new physiology. I'm not even a middle of the pack guy. I'm the one that loves doing the races, and just tries not to get last. It's just now, I sleep better at night and my mood has stabilized, and I've lost some weight (although, this is due to some dietary changes and not solely due to T levels, although it helps). If you feel that all these new podium guys and people beating you that you've never heard of is related to doping, then I can see why you are passionate about this. I personally don't care. Personally, I compete against myself in this sport, as I don't ever plan on setting foot on any level of podium, overall or AG. But I do want to improve and be healthy

If it's in the best interests of men to have such physician input become normative, then why would you complain?

Yes, as it stands right now taking T is not legal for racing. But let's take a step back and look at how ridiculous that is. First, there is no proven benefit to supplementing with T back to normal levels. The benefits from doping are due to exceeding what is the medical recommendation. Next, it's presently legal to mess with other hormones in your body (like thyroid). Add to that some of the other treatments and surgeries that technology has made available that we are perfectly accepting of. Take, for instance, stem cell treatments. Please justify how cells are taken form your body, alter them, then put back and we are totally fine with that. Lastly, no one on here has gotten there panties in a bunch of over genetic engineering. How is that even possible? Given the advances in using CRISPR it's a pretty safe bet that places like China and Russia are already using this on humans. But not one talks about that. All we do is rant over T.

True. I would argue not to use exogenous testosterone from a physiologic standpoint, yes, but not from a performance standpoint. The sweet T range of 400-600 doesn't "enhance" performance and turn you into a race winner. Agree completely

First, there is no proven benefit to supplementing with T back to normal levels. The benefits from doping are due to exceeding what is the medical recommendation.
True. I would argue not to use exogenous testosterone from a physiologic standpoint, yes, but not from a performance standpoint. The sweet T range of 400-600 doesn't "enhance" performance and turn you into a race winner. Agree completely

SO as you can see you were not alone in your thinking, and Ralph has joined you in your fantasy that all is right with T supplements, as long as you go to normal(whatever that means again, do you know?) If it did not improve your performance or Ralphs, or the tens of thousands taking it, then why the hell is everyone taking it? It absolutely works, you guys are silly to think otherwise. If you go from 100 to 400 you are telling me you will be no different? I did not say you would be a podium winner, but you would be a faster and stronger version of yourself, that is why people take it. It doesn't matter one bit that you are not podium material, or even if you are last, you got a benefit form it and that is what matters. It has nothing at all to do with how you did overall or against your peers.


I will try one more time to spell it out to everyone here who holds to your idea that as long as everything is just brought to normal it is ok. Here is the bad news, some people are just going to lose in sport and go slow. There is no right for anyone like that to be able to jack themselves up to go one second faster outside what is already allowed. Not one second, not one extra 1/10 of a mph on the bike, or 5 seconds a mile faster running, even if you currently run 14 minute miles, doesn't matter.


And lastly I had a chuckle when the 400-600 number popped up as nothing to see here. I can tell you emphatically that if you give some 65 or 70+ year old guy a T of 600, he will go from last to hero in a matter of months. This is what I deal with in my AG at each and every race. Dude that holds the Kona record in the 60+ AG is a busted/known doper, and guess what he took all those years, T!!! I guess it does work after all... (-;

Pure nonsense.

T is a powerful performance enhancer, full stop. A little helps a little. A lot helps a lot. There is plenty of evidence. The idea that "nothing happens" at "normal" levels then suddenly you get performance benefit at some magic threshold is BS.

You could actually make an argument that for older athletes, the benefits of supplementation to life quality might justify some allowances by governing bodies. But I've yet to see a method of implementation of that really like. Normalizing T levels across athletes is a giant, expensive can of worms, as far as I'm concerned. That's why I like the idea of zero T for racers. And if you prefer that quality of live, go ahead and "race" unsanctioned competitive events.

As a 43 y.o athlete, I'm proud that I'm on zero prescription drugs. I don't want to start getting on the American Pharma Train just to be able to compete with a bunch of guys with "normalized" T levels.

Wow, there is a lot of emotion in your post. I'll respect your passion for this topic but try to mention a couple of things on the science side.

If you go from 100 to 400 you are telling me you will be no different? I did not say you would be a podium winner, but you would be a faster and stronger version of yourself, that is why people take it.

Yes there will be a marginal improvement. But it's apparently so marginal that no one has ever offered to study the benefit of supplementing from 100 to 500. I've looked and can't find any studies on it. Either it's a non-topic (unlikely) or the change in your body is miniscule.

I had a chuckle when the 400-600 number popped up as nothing to see here. I can tell you emphatically that if you give some 65 or 70+ year old guy a T of 600, he will go from last to hero in a matter of months.

With all due respect, it has been mentioned several times that people should be dosing to a normal age level. So no one has promoted the idea of a 70 year old supplementing up to 600.


There is no right for anyone like that to be able to jack themselves up to go one second faster outside what is already allowed. Not one second, not one extra 1/10 of a mph on the bike, or 5 seconds a mile faster running, even if you currently run 14 minute miles, doesn't matter.

On this one you are wrong. Not because I think you are wrong. But because the trend in doping regulations says you are wrong. We allow all kinds of medications for someone to correct a diagnosed medical issue. Anyone taking these meds is technically a faster version of themselves than without it. Lets look at a couple of examples. A diabetic taking insulin is faster with the medication than without. A person with low thyroid is faster with thyroid med than without. A person with depression is faster with an anti anxiety med than without. The difference is that the "establishment" recognizes these conditions and pardons their drug use. So far the the people have decided that low T, although proven to be a widespread and possibly severe condition, isn't legitimate. That's the only difference. And it's a pretty arbitrary difference.

There is zero proof that a "little helps a little". There are just are no studies on it. I encourage you to try and find one. Because I have looked and haven't seen it yet.

Normalizing T levels across athletes is a giant, expensive can of worms, as far as I'm concerned. That's why I like the idea of zero T for racers. And if you prefer that quality of live, go ahead and "race" unsanctioned competitive events.


Thanks for identifying the issue so well. Its not that we think supplementing T back up to "normal" levels is an issue. It's just that it's too complicated for us to try and do it. Look, I don't have a horse in this race. I am merely amused by the people who stand on a podium and yell about doping but refuse to look at the bigger picture. It's hilarious.

ps- being on zero prescription drugs is not a bragging point. Eventually you will be on one. Being on a drug isn't a bad thing. Its medical technology. You want to stick your head in the sand and ignore medical advances cause you think you are more pure by not taking a medication...have fun with that

On this one you are wrong. Not because I think you are wrong. But because the trend in doping regulations says you are wrong. We allow all kinds of medications for someone to correct a diagnosed medical issue. //

And thus my comment of what is already allowed. I don't blame you for your ill conceived notion about drugs, a lot of people get caught on the slippery slope of if this guy gets an inhaler or this girl gets thyroid meds, then we should all be allowed T, or EPO, or whatever els the longevity docs are shilling out there.


Unless you know of some new rules that have been enacted, then I'm absolutely right in my assumptions and you are wrong. And yes I'm passionate about this stuff as it has affected how I view competition. Perhaps you view will triumph one day and the 80+ year olds doing sub 3 hour marathons will be held out as heroes. But that day is not today, so I will marvel in the natural class of athletes that show true human potential within a framework of minor boundaries and rules..

A trend does not = new rules

there are established laboratory values for various ages that are normal. We don't have to guess what's normal, the definition is already there. And having lab value within any of these normal defined ranges is just that, normal, not enhanced.

And to Ralphs point, I increased my testosterone back to normal levels. I did it naturally. So if there's this magical performance edge now, why is that not illegal as well? I increased my T right? Thing is, to my knowledge, I'm not sure you could naturally boost your T above normal levels, but you can do this synthetically. Hence the ban on synthetics, as the above normal range is where you get the true performance enhancement.


Arguing that going from sluggish and low energy due to low T, then having energy and sleeping well due to normal T, as this performance enhancement is silly. Yes, we improved our overall health, so that was "enhanced" but to imply anything else lacks any scientific data to back it.

And arguing if there was no benefit, why do it? There are tons of benefits, like decreased risk of hypertension, stroke, heart attack, etc. You assumedly equate increased T with increased performance, and that is not the case when physiologic norms are established.

I agree, synthetic T is banned, and don't use it if you're competing. Just increase it naturally so you get the health benefits you need, just like Cody Beals did.

And again, you can absolutely get a TUE for this if you decide to go synthetic. You say many of your friends haven't been able to. Are they in the 60+ year range as well? Because if so, medically that makes sense.

Monty, the crazy thing is that all these docs have normalized the usage of T just like docs normalized the use of statins. As the drug companies look to expand their markets they keep funding shoddy research (follow the money on who is funding those papers) to "prove" that lower and lower thresholds trigger the need to put more and more people on these drugs. Unfortunately this is substantially messing around with age group sport, specifically masters age group sport where we are supposed to competing on an unlevel playing field where those who are genetically blessed the most and can keep their youthfulness without pharma enhancement (or those who have managed to take care of themselves the best through the years) are rewarded. Then you have jokers like some of the posters on this thread doping (from a sport angle) to get back to "normal levels" prescribed by docs for better quality of life. I am not going to debate that they are getting better quality of life. They are. But that disqualifies them from racing any sanctioned sport even, as you say if they get 1/10th of a second of savings.

This entire idea of "I am not getting on the podium so it doesn't matter" is ridiculous. Well, if you are not getting on the podium, then draft, course cut, take the subway, wear fins, wear a 10mm wetsuit...whatever floats your boat, but we don't allow all those shortcuts either in sport either.

I think it really is time for a "no timing, no placements, dope all you want division" in events. Let these guys enter the events and leave in a mass group at the end and just cover the distance however they want. But they just get a different "completer" medal, no time, no placements. How many people do you think sign up for that? No, they will dope and be on T and go in the "competitor division" and try to get the "real finisher medal" so they can brag about it, all the while doping to the finish line.

I don't believe Monty is arguing against improving your T through diet, not overtraining and sleep and other natural means (are there any other really ???), he (along with many of us) are against pharma supplementation to jack up your T to ANY level (I don't really care if it is to bring you up 1/10000th of a percent over what you are at, and I am certain that WADA views it the same way unless you are at level where they will grant you a TUE....good luck getting yours). So I think I missed how you naturally jacked up your T. If you care to explain how, that would be helpful. If big pharma fits into your story, then its going to be illegal in terms of doing any event that is sanctioned by any Olympic or WADA signatory sporting event.

Do you have evidence of athletes getting a TUE for synthetic testosterone, and what conditions led to that TUE?

Yep, that Dude is in my AG also and it makes me sick to see his name above mine in the rankings.

I was talking to an older Kona athlete who knows all about this dude. He even thought it got a Tue for T. He says at the races the dude does, he will not stay for awards because he gets booed. And to say his years and years on the illegal stuff did not make he faster. Just look at his bike times over a 20 year stretch.

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Nope, just putting my faith in doctors that know more about this than forum guys. If there is a medical need to replace testosterone to normal levels due to symptomatic issues, I see no reason why you wouldn't get one, as the risks out low T far outweigh the benefits. I'm sure you will disagree, so we can agree to disagree.

I did very similar things to what was discussed in Cody Beals' blog. Vitamins, diet, weight loss, healthy fat intake, I also use supplement companies that have formulas for helping with this, all of which the ingredients are natural herbs and no banned substances. A little google search will give you all you need to know on how to increase levels naturally. Big pharma isn't required or necessary. And my T isn't "jacked", it's back to a normal range for my age. Synthetics, banned, because those can jack you way above normal levels and give you the real performance enhancement you guys are taking about. Age appropriate levels, as defined by laboratory values, adds no appreciable performance enhancement.

The doc my prescribe you synthetic T to get to "normal" (whatever that means), but to the part in bold, I don't believe WADA will agree with your doctor and grant you a TUE just because your doc is trying to get you back to whatever your doc deems as "normal".

And what's your equational background to make this any of this statement? I am board certified in anesthesia and family practice, and I don't like big pharma in general, but that doesn't make all drugs bad or all research "shoddy". Your bias against medicine is showing. As more research comes out showing the risks associated for men with low T, then yes, the medical field makes changes. Wow, that's a novel concept.


But we can "dope" naturally and get back to normal levels, and now you don't have an issue? Or do you? Clarify your position please. Again, really no studies out there showing performance enhancement at normal levels, because it's negligible to none. Performance enhancement that comes outside of the upper limits of normal, this is well known and documented.