Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:

and then you wait to find out what's wrong with your bike.

because consumers are going to do things you couldn't possibly believe they'd do, likewise bike mechanics working on stores, and the large number of consumers give you a second, more expansive test of validation because of the sheer numbers.

I think this is part of it, in regards to DB. While the custom stem / HED Corsair combination on the Serios and Andean looks pretty slick, many users, such as myself, looked to aftermarket bars to meet their specific needs. It's fairly obvious, this stem was only made to work with the Corsair bars, and anything else required some 'tinkering.' And, from what I've read here, that seems to be fairly common. I know this is veering away from the customer service aspect, but I believe this stem/bars design could be more flexible for users that will want to or need to switch out front end components.

Oh, and my experience with DB customer service has been nothing but positive.

--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance
Last edited by: Rappstar: Sep 15, 17 10:21
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Watching your posts it seems like you do want to make balanced and thoughtful posts based on your actual experiences. And that's all a reasonable reader can ask for IMHO.

I would ask if you think the level of customer service YOU receive is representative of what an average consumer receives. It would take a very dumb company not to go above and beyond for you. Additionally, it is not uncommon that new products going to influential people are more carefully "sorted" than the average consumer. As one of your examples was somewhat discordant from what I had seen for IRL consumers in my area, I just want to point out that as the commercials note "Your mileage may vary" when it comes to some of these companies and the customer service or product quality.

But then again, so might mine. I have a built in positive bias toward Trek and Bontrager products, but how much of that is based on an awesome LBS, great warranty support and products which match my personal preference. Even with Zipp/HED, when I have a product go wrong I find myself making greater much greater allowances than with other manufacturers. I guess we all are the sum of the products we actually get to use, but given your well earned status in the industry I may posit that yours may be a bit more curated by the manufacturers.
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
That's what I've gathered online as well. I just haven't heard anything official from a trek dealer or someone who has recently tried to order a 2018 bike. And since Carl isn't there anymore, we can't ask him either.

Carl is no longer with Trek?? Anyone know where is he working by chance? Carl was a breathe of fresh air as far as I am concerned.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Multisportsdad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Multisportsdad wrote:
I know this is veering away from the customer service aspect, but I believe this stem/bars design could be more flexible for users that will want to or need to switch out front end components. Oh, and my experience with DB customer service has been nothing but positive.

ah, well, you bring up what is the most salient complication with this bike. have you looked at the pics i've taken of the andean? that i built in my workshop? have you noted that the bars on it are not the bars that come with this bike?

i love me some andean. but only with the PD bars on that bike or with other similar bars that pedestal. however, you need their stem on the bike (for optimal performance) because it has bosses that accept their front storage that fairs their rear storage. conundrum! so i did some modifying. as jeroen did on his andean.

this bike goes from a good bike to a great bike as new front end options come on line. i'll go into greater detail on this in my own reviews that i'll write on this bike.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
stevej wrote:
That's what I've gathered online as well. I just haven't heard anything official from a trek dealer or someone who has recently tried to order a 2018 bike. And since Carl isn't there anymore, we can't ask him either.


Carl is no longer with Trek?? Anyone know where is he working by chance? Carl was a breathe of fresh air as far as I am concerned.

carl left trek some months ago. i'm keeping an eye on him. stalking him you might say. imho carl was a resource trek did not fully understand, and trek's SC sales may suffer because of carl's absence. the bike is unchanged - still a great bike. but the support has changed (because the support system that is carl is no longer there). trek made a blunder by having carl's absence remain unfilled, and other enterprising bike companies could do well by noting that this means a free agent is unsigned.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AKCrafty wrote:
When are we going to talk about Speed Concepts again?

Hopefully soon.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
elf6c wrote:
I would ask if you think the level of customer service YOU receive is representative of what an average consumer receives.

shite no. you'd better treat me like a damned god if you're a bike company! (tho not really because i'm very unlikely to take that out on you publicly if you don't, because i understand that every customer service issue is individual and companies screw up just as i did when i was a bike maker.)

and that's why i really don't think i wrote in this thread, "my customer service experience with DB has been stellar! i don't know what kiley's talking about!" i think it would be unfair and unrealistic for me to write that.

so i've kept my comments (i think) to the performance of the bike. yes, i know a lot of things about all the bike companies you all don't know. i know which bike companies have had customer relations challenges because of acquisitions, trade show and travel, staff leaving, new untrained staff coming in, and so when i see comments on the forum i know exactly why a snafu happened at an otherwise great company, but what am i going to say?

the truly enterprising reader, upon not getting satisfaction, sometimes just PMs me. sometimes i can help. sometimes i can't. it just depends what that reader wants, and sometimes it's more satisfying to publicly flay the company than to get the problem solved.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
yes, I noticed your mods to the stem. I'm also using PD bars for likely the same reason. I'm now using their Version 2.0 stem (what I call it) with the nose that is held on with magnets. It seems to be a better design than 1.0, but I'm not wild about the Di2 cables that come out the bottom.

--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
wsrobert wrote:
detailing that you're simply pro manufacturer would suffice. With seeming no ability to feign objectivity.


when i saw you replied to my post i pretty much knew the tenor of the reply before reading it. on this and on every issue, one way to parse between two disparate outlooks is slowman's view versus wsrobert's view. you are of course free to believe and relay your opinion, so that readers can clearly see where your compass needle points, versus mine.

And I'm happy you continue to allow it.

I'm just the counter to what I often believe is an imbalanced opinion - by being imbalanced myself, in the opposite direction. But I guess thats the thing - often these dialogues are just a collection of opinions. Someone said above that we're all smart enough to draw our own conclusions based on the dialogue presented. Probably just good for us all to remember that.

Not that it matters, but I'd still ride a DB. Probably.

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1) i do not think DB knew based on what was written so how could they have included it

2) not sure dan was unobjective. I think his point was its easy to throw companies under buses undeservedly online

3) the real FU here is DB's customer service. I am not sure that they did anything else as they did not know it was a problem
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
stevej wrote:
That's what I've gathered online as well. I just haven't heard anything official from a trek dealer or someone who has recently tried to order a 2018 bike. And since Carl isn't there anymore, we can't ask him either.


Carl is no longer with Trek?? Anyone know where is he working by chance? Carl was a breathe of fresh air as far as I am concerned.


carl left trek some months ago. i'm keeping an eye on him. stalking him you might say. imho carl was a resource trek did not fully understand, and trek's SC sales may suffer because of carl's absence. the bike is unchanged - still a great bike. but the support has changed (because the support system that is carl is no longer there). trek made a blunder by having carl's absence remain unfilled, and other enterprising bike companies could do well by noting that this means a free agent is unsigned.

I have ridden a Trek bike for as long as I can remember. I have and continue to like their bikes and believe in them, but sometimes I wonder if they really understand what is and isn't valuable internally from a marketing/sales/cs perspective. Maybe the company is just getting too big.

There is no doubt in my mind that Carl was a valuable resource to the ST community as he answered thousands of questions to potential buyers in the dawn of Superbikes. I have no idea if that was part of Carl's actual responsibility (as an engineer of the bike), and if not, whether those above even grasped what he did. I have noticed that certain positions there are very short-lived. Maybe people aren't in positions long enough to really truly understand what is working and what isn't. Regardless that is a huge loss for Trek. As far as I am concerned you can find another marketing/sales/cs person, but you can't just find another Carl.

Fwiw, as I mentioned in another thread. My own casual observation of a trip Tim Reed/Holly Lawrence took to Trek this summer seemed rather illogical in regards to some activities they were asked to do. I was not at all surprised by the result at Worlds. It was clear whoever is in charge of activating their sponsorship doesn't really understand how much time and effort is required to be a World Champion in triathlon. I get that you want to get some value out of the athletes but the way they did it was invaluable in the first place which means you are just wasting their time.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
My own casual observation of a trip Tim Reed/Holly Lawrence took to Trek this summer seemed rather illogical in regards to some activities they were asked to do. I was not at all surprised by the result at Worlds. It was clear whoever is in charge of activating their sponsorship doesn't really understand how much time and effort is required to be a World Champion in triathlon.

i don't have any insight on that worthy of a comment, i'll just note that one thing kiley and i agree on is that holly's seat's too high. i love the rest of her position. but her seat could come down at least a cm and she would benefit.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
japarker24 wrote:
AKCrafty wrote:
When are we going to talk about Speed Concepts again?


Hopefully soon.

Happened sooner than I thought!
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [rhayden] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rhayden wrote:
Kilyay is going to talk to DB and straighten things out. DB acknowledged there was an issue and are fixing it...mistakes happen. people get wound up. reasonable people move on.

I spoke with Steve from Diamondback earlier today and we have reached a detente. Diamondback offered to cover the service costs I incurred, which assuages a lot of the financial pain on my end.

As for the PayPal and refund process, it sounds like there was an internal breakdown in communication where the people with the power to redress weren't aware or made aware of the situation. It's obviously not an excuse, but this kind of thing happens at large companies -- anyone who has worked in a marketing function at a billion dollar company can attest to that -- but of course it's also the kind of thing that direct-to-consumer bike purveyors like Canyon and DB have to master over time if they are going to be successful.

In terms of the product issue, it does sound like this was a new thing for them, and learning of this problem may be a blessing in disguise going forward. Not that it matters, but I still think that a two bolt stem and/or a stem without such heft would have alleviated the problem -- maybe they agree, maybe they don't, but I think there is surely room for improvement in the design of that front end. That bolt occlusion alone...

All things considered, it sounds like there have been relatively few issues with the bike across the population served. The consistent complaint seems to be the PF bottom bracket nightmare, which I experienced and Jeroen experienced. But considering how ambitious this bike is and was, maybe not so bad.

I'm glad I started this thread, and I'm glad we hashed this out. It may be easy to throw a company under the bus undeservedly online, but strict compliance with the code of slowmerta isn't a solution either. Because the reality is it's really tough, as an end consumer buying niche products in a small market, to make purchase decisions without any information, positive or negative, from another end consumer. I had a good dialogue with rappstar about this topic earlier this year:

kileyay wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
If I try something and I hate it, is the better outcome for all involved not to simply say directly to them, "hey, this didn't work for me for X, Y, and Z reasons. Maybe consider changing those things?" What good comes out of publicly exposing those flaws?


Really? How about the good being that your readers don't go spend money on terrible shit that sucks?

I think you of all people can choose and use your words well enough to separate criticisms that are personal vs. those that are likely applicable to your audience. And we are smart enough to differentiate between the two ourselves. You think we don't understand that saddles are personal?

It really burns me up when I go out and buy something based on a one-sided review or recommendation -- typically from a friend who is so encumbered by post-purchase confirmation bias they are incapable of admitting to a product's flaws -- only to find a failure point that makes the thing a deal breaker for me. And if someone had only mentioned that potential downside...

On a related note...I smashed up my helmet last weekend in an accident and have been shopping for a new one all week. I read your Scott review and it was so incredibly over the top positive I couldn't bring myself to order that helmet. That review was just too gushing. I picked up three others to test out instead. I guess we just have radically different views on what constitutes an effective and credible product review. And your view is wrong.

I stand by that.
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kileyay wrote:
but strict compliance with the code of slowmerta isn't a solution either.

perhaps you could explain to me how this code works. given this very thread. and given that you pretty much write what you want here. and given the threads on felt now ongoing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
kileyay wrote:
but strict compliance with the code of slowmerta isn't a solution either.


perhaps you could explain to me how this code works. given this very thread. and given that you pretty much write what you want here. and given the threads on felt now ongoing.

I bite my tongue for this entire thread and you can't let me get in one small jest at the very end? It was a jest, not a jab.

<3
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kileyay wrote:
Slowman wrote:
kileyay wrote:
but strict compliance with the code of slowmerta isn't a solution either.


perhaps you could explain to me how this code works. given this very thread. and given that you pretty much write what you want here. and given the threads on felt now ongoing.


I bite my tongue for this entire thread and you can't let me get in one small jest at the very end? It was a jest, not a jab. <3

ah. well. the irony was lost on me. sorry. i know it ruins it if you have to explain the joke.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
because no one on this godforsaken website knows how to use the quote feature. Dev Paul, who's been on here since dinosaurs roamed the earth still puts his reply inside the quote half the damn time.
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [JustinPB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JustinPB wrote:
because no one on this godforsaken website knows how to use the quote feature. Dev Paul, who's been on here since dinosaurs roamed the earth still puts his reply inside the quote half the damn time.

Hahaha. Gold
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe direct to consumer isnt the right model for bikes that rival the space shuttle in complexity? Or at least not the model that exists today.

You mention DB asks for Pad X-Y to ensure its built as close to those numbers as possible upon arrival. But people travel with their bikes. They swap out parts. Thats not really a solution.

Maybe it'll take the industry going from one end of the spectrum (B&M) to the other (online) - failing - and then back to a completely rethought version of the OG model. Or some more successful hybrid of the two.

"One Line Robert"
Last edited by: wsrobert: Sep 15, 17 13:10
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
stevej wrote:
That's what I've gathered online as well. I just haven't heard anything official from a trek dealer or someone who has recently tried to order a 2018 bike. And since Carl isn't there anymore, we can't ask him either.


Carl is no longer with Trek?? Anyone know where is he working by chance? Carl was a breathe of fresh air as far as I am concerned.


carl left trek some months ago. i'm keeping an eye on him. stalking him you might say. imho carl was a resource trek did not fully understand, and trek's SC sales may suffer because of carl's absence. the bike is unchanged - still a great bike. but the support has changed (because the support system that is carl is no longer there). trek made a blunder by having carl's absence remain unfilled, and other enterprising bike companies could do well by noting that this means a free agent is unsigned.

I have ridden a Trek bike for as long as I can remember. I have and continue to like their bikes and believe in them, but sometimes I wonder if they really understand what is and isn't valuable internally from a marketing/sales/cs perspective. Maybe the company is just getting too big.

There is no doubt in my mind that Carl was a valuable resource to the ST community as he answered thousands of questions to potential buyers in the dawn of Superbikes. I have no idea if that was part of Carl's actual responsibility (as an engineer of the bike), and if not, whether those above even grasped what he did. I have noticed that certain positions there are very short-lived. Maybe people aren't in positions long enough to really truly understand what is working and what isn't. Regardless that is a huge loss for Trek. As far as I am concerned you can find another marketing/sales/cs person, but you can't just find another Carl.

Fwiw, as I mentioned in another thread. My own casual observation of a trip Tim Reed/Holly Lawrence took to Trek this summer seemed rather illogical in regards to some activities they were asked to do. I was not at all surprised by the result at Worlds. It was clear whoever is in charge of activating their sponsorship doesn't really understand how much time and effort is required to be a World Champion in triathlon. I get that you want to get some value out of the athletes but the way they did it was invaluable in the first place which means you are just wasting their time.

I'm just glad he was still there to give my daughter and me a "personal" factory tour last March. We showed up for the normal public tour hours, and I had mentioned to Carl in an PM that we were coming and I just wanted to say "Hi". Carl met us in the lobby and tagged along on the tour, adding additional insights that even the regular tour guide didn't know. It was pretty cool having the tour guide ask Carl questions about some of the equipment and products. One thing not generally known here is that Carl started at Trek as a manufacturing engineer before getting into product design, so he not only designed some of the bikes, but also designed (and installed) a lot of equipment used to MAKE the bikes.

Thanks again Carl!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wsrobert wrote:
Maybe direct to consumer isnt the right model for bikes that rival the space shuttle in complexity? Or at least not the model that exists today.

You mention DB asks for Pad X-Y to ensure its built as close to those numbers as possible upon arrival. But people travel with their bikes. They swap out parts. Thats not really a solution.

Maybe it'll take the industry going from one end of the spectrum (B&M) to the other (online) - failing - and then back to a completely rethought version of the OG model. Or some more successful hybrid of the two.

spot on! altho i don't think there is anything wrong with techie products being sold consumer direct. to me, the andean is a moonshot. whether it's consumer direct or thru an IBD anybody who is an early adopter is going to have to expect the attendant issue. people here forget what it was like to be a speed concept early adopter in 2011.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
One thing not generally known here is that Carl started at Trek as a manufacturing engineer before getting into product design, so he not only designed some of the bikes, but also designed (and installed) a lot of equipment used to MAKE the bikes.

Thanks again Carl!

I regularly chide(d) Dan for overstating my role/impact/whatever...so I'm not going to let you off the hook either. I was the ME for only one of several mfg departments involved in making the bikes.

And you're still very welcome :-) It was great to meet you.

Carl Matson
Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here are some pics I snapped today:

Junction mounted to the rail:


"Invisible" to the wind:

Quote Reply
Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [davews09] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gotcha. I see the box is off to the side enough that it doesn't get in the way of the cage

Matt
Quote Reply

Prev Next