i understood what you wrote and the sentiment behind it. just, i've watched for upwards of a year as diamondback, cervelo for its p5x, and any number of companies have gotten shat on and many of those companies have quietly been found to have produced very good products.

in this case, diamondback has been roundly shat on for producing a bike, selling it, dropping the ball on processing a timely refund (which it has acknowledged). prior to dropping the ball, in an attempt to satisfy the customer it did (as i understand it) send out 2 forks, 3 stems, and spent quite a lot of time trying to troubleshoot and fix a problem, which doesn't sound to me indicative of bad customer service.

this was a technical problem that i can't duplicate and that to the best of my knowledge no one else has been able to duplicate. i'm not going to go as far as the person who kiley lost his cool at, because i'm not prepared to dispute kiley's experience. i can only talk about my experience.

that established, one option is that kiley got a faulty bike; another option is that he didn't. i don't know which. just, as a former bike maker who introduced this category of bike you all own, boy do i have stories of consumers and shop mechanics! i say this casting no aspersions on kiley's experience, because it's his experience and i wasn't there.

over the past 5 years i've owned 2 speed concepts, a felt DA, i spent a fair bit of time on a cervelo p5x, i just built, rode and tested a scott plasma premium, and then there's this diamondback in my workshop, and there are some other tri bikes i'm forgetting. they're all great bikes. they all built up great, rode great, handled, started, stopped, adjusted, shifted. there's more breathiness and hyperventilation about the performance of products than is appropriate, because when these products fail to live up to their promise often it's because the products aren't properly used (and sometimes i'm the one who doesn't properly use them). in another thread right now there's a "failure" of a bike; no, it's the "failure" of the aerobar; in fact the user was riding pedestals 15mm too tall with screws 15mm too short. so, another couple of brand reputations are publicly trashed because of user error.

i love consumer reviews here on this forum, but consumer readers need to understand that consumer reviews are written by consumers. i'm not a consumer. i'm a former bike maker, who built his own factory, designed his own bikes, and designed classes of bikes that were paradigm changers. i designed the way you all are fitted to these bikes, via the various methodologies, most of which are offshoots of the math and processes that i built. i'm not going to list all my palmares as a manufacturer, i just write this because for all this i am very aware of my own shortcomings as a reviewer and a mechanic. because of this i am reticent to be critical of a product until i fully understand the function of that product, and if it doesn't work to my satisfaction i want to make double darn sure it's the product's fault and not mine. i think good reviewers must approach the writing of their text with this much humility. if you don't demand this as a reader then you end up no better informed than a voter making his ballot decisions after consuming russian news off facebook.

Agree.

In this situation Diamondback was way too trusting and generous and perhaps offered a refund prematurely.

Are you planning on purchasing a DB or are you just aimlessly talking shit to Kiley?

Because I've read this entire thread and I'm no longer considering a DB. Kiley is not the one who broke his word in this situation.

Surely I can't be the only one who has a hard time buying that the problem was magically solved by cleaning the steerer tube? If that's the case, I could/should have experienced several catastrophic crashes, yet have NEVER experienced this issue.

Surely I can't be the only one who has a hard time buying that the problem was magically solved by cleaning the steerer tube? If that's the case, I could/should have experienced several catastrophic crashes, yet have NEVER experienced this issue.

Kilyay is going to talk to DB and straighten things out. DB acknowledged there was an issue and are fixing it. If the physical problem has been solved then likely Kilyay would ride the bike and DB should be praised for getting to the bottom of it.

mistakes happen. people get wound up. reasonable people move on.

I would consider a BD because of this thread. DB aren't on this thread bashing Kilyay or other deflective tactics. Their post came a day or so after the initial post. This makes me believe they were making sure they had all the info before they muddied the water further.. The post here is sticking to the facts. Is telling us what happened in a mature and reasonable way. They have tried to sort out the issue with their bike and think they may in fact have sorted the problem.

I wonder if they would let Kilyay 'borrow' a bike for a bit and see if the problem is resolved. i wonder if Kilyay would be willing to take the bike back and provide a review.

I'm well aware one shouldn't lube a steerer, as I'd assume any reputable mechanic would as well. I'm curious as to what steps DB took to ensure the issue was in fact related to the assembly and not a very forward, very long, and very low position putting a lot of leverage on a cut down steerer.

... after all of that trial and error and effort on DBs side - they failed to advise on what would seem to be a simple solution. That could have easily been outlined in whatever build documentation is included with these bikes.



At what point is it not the manufacturers responsibility to ensure the shops they're selling into have the adequate knowledge to service the end consumer?

That was quite a lot to write - when detailing that you're simply pro manufacturer would suffice. With seeming no ability to feign objectivity. Or attempt to understand how consumers could be sold bikes, that are now exceedingly complicated and surpass the level of knowledge and expertise available at their local LBS. And in those situations, its the consumers fault. In your opinion at least. In Kileys own experience - after all of that trial and error and effort on DBs side - they failed to advise on what would seem to be a simple solution. That could have easily been outlined in whatever build documentation is included with these bikes.

At what point is it not the manufacturers responsibility to ensure the shops they're selling into have the adequate knowledge to service the end consumer?

Honestly, I'm wondering if there was a faulty headset bearing that leaked onto the fork upon insertion. If I was building a bike, I'd clean the fork before inserting it, and then when you put it in it gets contaminated. I could foresee a series of events where a one off bad bearing causes this through no fault of the manufacturer or builder. Note they specifically said it was bearing lube that causes the problem.

The way I read it, DB didn't know the solution until they had his bike back in their hands, so they didn't fail to advise.

And, they didn't sell the bike into that shop, kiley bought the bike online, and took it to a mechanic of his choice. Nothing wrong with that, but DB can't personally train every mechanic in the world.

Of course, DB dropped the ball on the refund, and while that created a major pain in the ass for Kiley, he had the paypal protection.

i have the same length stem that kiley had. i ride steep. i'm heavier than he is. i ride on shitty roads like he does. i don't have his problem. i'm not suggesting any causation, i just don't know how exactly DB is supposed to continue to chase this, unless you're suggesting building a dedicated testing machine that doesn't currently exist for a single model of bike.

let me tell you how things really worked in the bike making business when i was a bike maker. you engineer the bike. you build the bike. you test the bike on testing machines. you follow all CPSC and CE protocols. you put this bike underneath product testers. then you put it underneath your pro and pro team riders. now, after the thing has been ridden by 40 or so people you put it out there for sale.

and then you wait to find out what's wrong with your bike.

because consumers are going to do things you couldn't possibly believe they'd do, likewise bike mechanics working on stores, and the large number of consumers give you a second, more expansive test of validation because of the sheer numbers.

i can't speak for DB. however, after having given the problem a comprehensive world class noodling if i just couldn't figure out what caused the problem i'd look very hard to see if there's a second instance. if i couldn't find a second instance at some point i'd just add it to the list of mysteries of the universe.

detailing that you're simply pro manufacturer would suffice. With seeming no ability to feign objectivity.

Someone like Trek who is selling direct but still maintains a dealer network has a leg up here.