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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
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afurlong wrote:
i'm going to bet that you get no further communication from them, and that they are way too chicken shit to come on ST to address this publicly.

Along with others, I think the anonymous bike survey that Dan put up the other day was from DB.
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
endosch2 wrote:
I think 25 bikes in 4 years is a total waste of time and energy. I don't care how many industry contacts you have or how much money you have. A new bike every 2 months?


I don't know why I'm wasting the time or energy responding to this, but...

I like trying a lot of bikes. I like talking about bikes. I like riding bikes. I like new bikes, old bikes, cheap bikes, rich bikes. For a while, I had a pro triathlete girlfriend, and I bought her a bunch of bikes too, and I was sorry to see those bikes go. Sometimes I acquire bikes for friends pro bono. I just like bikes.

You're allowed to like other things.

My current N + 1 = 4 is sadly deficient by comparison! Glad to hear you are getting a refund; and thanks for informing everyone about DB's customer service (or lack thereof).
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
milesthedog wrote:
PayPal will take care of it in a heartbeat. They're good.


As an update, just received this:

PayPal wrote:
We've completed our review and decided this case in your favor. You will receive a $2,929.99 USD refund from Accell North America Inc. The refund amount should reflect in your PayPal balance within 5 business days, if not sooner. If you paid with a credit card, the money is refunded to your credit card. Please note that it can take up to 30 days for the refund to appear on your card statement.

So does this mean that Paypal now goes after DB for reimbursement. Interested to hear DB's response.
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Alexander wrote:
kileyay wrote:
milesthedog wrote:
PayPal will take care of it in a heartbeat. They're good.


As an update, just received this:

PayPal wrote:
We've completed our review and decided this case in your favor. You will receive a $2,929.99 USD refund from Accell North America Inc. The refund amount should reflect in your PayPal balance within 5 business days, if not sooner. If you paid with a credit card, the money is refunded to your credit card. Please note that it can take up to 30 days for the refund to appear on your card statement.


So does this mean that Paypal now goes after DB for reimbursement. Interested to hear DB's response.


i saw some crosstalk offline. i think folks at diamondback were made aware of this issue, very probably because of this thread. i didn't alert diamondback. perhaps jordan did. in any case, i think some folks not involved in the refund process were rightly upset that a customer had not gotten proper service and they hopped to and got the refund processed.

beyond this, i think it's fine that this thread chronicled the laborious and painful process kiley went through, because it's one person's experience. i built an andean 2 weeks ago and i didn't have any of the problems kiley had. i've ridden the bike a bunch and have not experienced those problems. i have a lot of reviews i'll be writing of products that are hung on this bike, and in all of the building up and down, up and down of this frameset i haven't experienced any of his problems.

but this isn't to diminish his experience. maybe he was an early adopter and whatever problems he experienced were addressed before i got my frameset. maybe his problems were specific to using the stem he used on that particular bike (which is my suspicion). nevertheless, his experience is his, mine is mine.

this discussion was fine as long as it was simply kiley complaining about his andean experience. where it started to go off the rails was when it got highly speculative and conspiracy theoretical. there is only so much of that i'm going to allow.

EDIT: let me add that i *think* DB decided that he is deserved of a refund. i haven't spoken to DB about this, other than to say that i know that more folks inside DB were mobilized to make sure the case is correctly handled.

carry on...

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 13, 17 11:14
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Only sorry to see the bike go Kiley, not the gf? Sorry, thought I would lighten the thread up a bit.
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i think it's fine that this thread chronicled the laborious and painful process kiley went through, because it's one person's experience.

wasn't Milesthedog's thread also about his experience? why wasn't that fine? Just trying to understand the rules about posting re poor customer service.
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote] For a while, I had a pro triathlete girlfriend, and I bought her a bunch of bikes too, and I was sorry to see those bikes go.[/quote]
Hilarious.

It is the mind itself which builds the body.
-Joseph Pilates
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Thanks for posting.
Lots of things about the bike and the company are troubling.
A lesson for all, including us.

Well, let's put this in perspective because i feel with kiley and i don't think he is treated the right way if he was promissed the refund. If he was promised the refund they should have taken care of this in a appropriate timeframe. No question on this.

But i own the Andean, and i like to play with bikes as well. When my Andean finally arrived i really wanted to put a zipp vuka stealth bar on the stem. I cut of the flanges up until a point that the vuka fitted, but i cut so much of the stem that i didn't wanted to use it anymore because i am not sure how safe that still is. I emailed them about my stem 'project' and i told them i needed a new one. Within the week it arrived in my country even before i paid for it.

I have taken it apart 3 times and rebuilt it also to play with the Di2 cables a bit. Every time the stem was loose and re-tightend. I have had no slippage, no play, no rotation what so ever. I do shaved off 2 threads from the pinch bolt but after that the stem and bars are rock solid. I have hit speed bumps, potholes and some other serious bad road surface. Nothing happened with the bars. Nothing happened with the storage door, nothing happened with the storage boxes on top. Everything stays where it should. No seatpost slippage and some questions i had were answered fast by DB or even faster by Jordan Rapp.

So my CS experience is very good and i actualy really enjoy the bike. I have owned a SC and a Felt IA FRD in the last 5 years. The Andean 'catches' less wind then the IA or let me rephrase this, it feels more stable in high winds.

I have just one complain on this bike and that is the press fit bb, or better, the removal of it. That will be my winter project. It is so tight in there that i just cannot get it out. I'm not sure how much force i am willing to put on it so i will discuss this with DB in the next few weeks.

So nothing wrong with the bike and i cannot recall having read from any other owners they are having trouble with the stem or bars. But i do think that they handled the situation with kiley poorly.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [tri-run] [ In reply to ]
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tri-run wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Thanks for posting.
Lots of things about the bike and the company are troubling.
A lesson for all, including us.


Well, let's put this in perspective because i feel with kiley and i don't think he is treated the right way if he was promissed the refund. If he was promised the refund they should have taken care of this in a appropriate timeframe. No question on this.

But i own the Andean, and i like to play with bikes as well. When my Andean finally arrived i really wanted to put a zipp vuka stealth bar on the stem. I cut of the flanges up until a point that the vuka fitted, but i cut so much of the stem that i didn't wanted to use it anymore because i am not sure how safe that still is. I emailed them about my stem 'project' and i told them i needed a new one. Within the week it arrived in my country even before i paid for it.

I have taken it apart 3 times and rebuilt it also to play with the Di2 cables a bit. Every time the stem was loose and re-tightend. I have had no slippage, no play, no rotation what so ever. I do shaved off 2 threads from the pinch bolt but after that the stem and bars are rock solid. I have hit speed bumps, potholes and some other serious bad road surface. Nothing happened with the bars. Nothing happened with the storage door, nothing happened with the storage boxes on top. Everything stays where it should. No seatpost slippage and some questions i had were answered fast by DB or even faster by Jordan Rapp.

So my CS experience is very good and i actualy really enjoy the bike. I have owned a SC and a Felt IA FRD in the last 5 years. The Andean 'catches' less wind then the IA or let me rephrase this, it feels more stable in high winds.

I have just one complain on this bike and that is the press fit bb, or better, the removal of it. That will be my winter project. It is so tight in there that i just cannot get it out. I'm not sure how much force i am willing to put on it so i will discuss this with DB in the next few weeks.

So nothing wrong with the bike and i cannot recall having read from any other owners they are having trouble with the stem or bars. But i do think that they handled the situation with kiley poorly.

Jeroen

jeroen, i have done pretty much exactly what you have done with this bike, and my experience is the same, tho i didn't cut too much off the wings ;-)

i'll be writing about this bike with quite a few pics and in different configs. just, about the pressfit bb. how are you trying to remove the bb? with what tools? and did you read my tools article on the front page! i'm happy to help you unpress your bb.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [tri-run] [ In reply to ]
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I believe the OP mentioned something very specific about his setup that could be impacting the performance of the bike. That being how long and low he rides it.

Mind sharing a photo of your bike? I'd bet its not exceptionally long and low.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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IIRC in kiley's original review of the DB he stated that he had a ton of trouble with the PF30 interface. both he and his mechanic had great difficulty removing the OEM PF bb.

there are only so many tools that essentially serve the job of banging the shit out of the BB to get it out, but Park Tool's newest BB removal tool thingy is pretty solid. but most bikes in my experience vary so widely in their QC as far as that specific area goes that bike to bike is pretty unpredictable in terms of 'ease of forced removal.'
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Reading all of this just makes me wish you had purchased a Falco.

Internet User
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
I believe the OP mentioned something very specific about his setup that could be impacting the performance of the bike. That being how long and low he rides it. Mind sharing a photo of your bike? I'd bet its not exceptionally long and low.


his photo is going to look like my photo because it's got the factory stem on it. i have a theory. i have no idea whether my theory has any merit.



you'll note that this frame, in front of the head tube top, where the steerer exits, slopes up. this is okay if you use the factory stem, or a stem that follows this profile. but as you can see even the factory stem is built to really hug that profile. in my opinion it would be a mistake to try to use this bike as a long/low bike beyond the longness, lowness it currently exhibits.

in my opinion, just my guess, a downward sloping non-factory stem [EDIT, LATE ADD: or a slammed factory stem if an insufficient gap is maintained] is going to exhibit, along with the steerer, a natural bounce that's going to hit this frame from time to time, and that's why kiley's stem offsets. the stem hits the frame, on its bottom, and the bottom of the stem is forced to slide to one side.

this isn't a manufacturer defect. this is a poor frame choice given kiley's riding position and stem requirement, which kiley wouldn't have known about prior to buying the frame.



see where LAI is? that's where kiley is. he has precisely the same variance from the norm. it's not that there's anything wrong with kiley's position, but as you can see his position requires a very specific frame geometry, or a very specific bar. i just about always tell people with positions like this, your purchase is a tririg alpha x. that's your "frame". the bicycle frame is now the "component" that attaches to what is your primary necessary purchase.

in my opinion, but i'd have to calc this out, a tririg alpha c on the standard andean stem, or a similarly low profile bar like perhaps a PRO or an enve, that is the way to build kiley's bike up for him.

maybe i'm wrong in my analysis. i have zero data other than my gut instinct. but this is what my gut tells me. that factory stem is rock solid on the steerer. it's a round 1" carbon steerer. if you tighten your stem correctly and it still offsets, my explanation is what makes the most sense to me. that's the only way i could imagine force being applied in a manner so as to exhibit kiley's handlebar offset.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 13, 17 14:15
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't Diamondback where Jordan went? If so did he just go from bad to worse as far as jobs are concerned.
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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wait i don't get it. did kiley NOT use the factory stem? what length is your stem? is it the same as jeroen's or kiley's?
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
IIRC in kiley's original review of the DB he stated that he had a ton of trouble with the PF30 interface. both he and his mechanic had great difficulty removing the OEM PF bb.

i just built an andean and a plasma premium. they each use a PF bb, tho the size of the hole is different. they were each equivalently hard/easy to press in. i had to bang the bb in the scott back out because i put it in backward (got the right and left wrong). they were appropriately hard/easy to bang out.

at some point, it's just how bikes work. both these bikes were, to my feel, built appropriately.

jkhayc wrote:
there are only so many tools that essentially serve the job of banging the shit out of the BB to get it out, but Park Tool's newest BB removal tool thingy is pretty solid.

do you mean this?



i don't have any experience with it but anything from park is likely to work well. i use this:



and this:



and my massive deltoids and biceps.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
wait i don't get it. did kiley NOT use the factory stem? what length is your stem? is it the same as jeroen's or kiley's?


i heard or read he used a 130mm stem. did i remember wrong? i believe the factory stems are 95mm, 105mm, 115mm. so maybe i'm misinformed or misremembered. but i can't make those two facts square. either he didn't use a factory stem or he didn't use a 130mm or DB has a stem i don't know about.

EDIT: ah, okay, i see that at least in 1 case he used the 105mm factory. in that case i don't know what happened. the only thing that can have happened is that the stem and the frame contacted each other, which then makes me question whether all the head parts were installed. all i know is i can't reproduce the problems he mentions in the bike i'm riding.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 13, 17 14:03
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yea I've used the "expander'' thingy in the past, but use the first tool pictured now. Much better. And a hammer and some willpower.

I saw your fit this Saturday and cheered for her as "Dan Empfield's fit" because I couldn't remember her actual name. Only saw her on the run though, so can't comment on the fit ;) haha (although that obviously implies that the bike worked and the gearing selection was solid)

"They allayed my fears by agreeing to ship me both the 95mm and 105mm stem with the bike, so I could configure it to my wishes, which was a good compromise."

from his review. i think he went with the longer one
Last edited by: jkhayc: Sep 13, 17 14:03
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
I ride these bikes in the lowest and longest configurations (105mm stem, slammed in this case).
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
"They allayed my fears by agreeing to ship me both the 95mm and 105mm stem with the bike, so I could configure it to my wishes, which was a good compromise."

i went back and read it, and he said that, yes, he had this stem slammed. i keep coming back to the notion that slammed was overslammed. this was the thiokol o ring in this case.

i found this bike built to extremely tight tolerances, but i found every tolerance perfect. i think you can see in the pic i provided that the distance between the stem and the frame is not much. you take out a 2mm spacer the stem is going to contact the frame. you have to leave a little - 2mm, 3mm - gap between them because even if there was no flex in the stem (unlikely) there is flex in the steerer, between the bearings, and that's going to be transmitted above and below the bearings (in fork splay and what would you call it? stem splay?).

all i can say is that i can't replicate that behavior in the bike i'm riding. maybe jordan or jeroen have experienced something like this.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever ridden a Trek SC? Also, why was the SC not in the aero shootout? Seems to be a very aero bike and don't hear many complaints about it...

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
I saw your fit this Saturday and cheered for her as "Dan Empfield's fit" because I couldn't remember her actual name. Only saw her on the run though, so can't comment on the fit ;) haha (although that obviously implies that the bike worked and the gearing selection was solid).

she had a successful ride. she made up about a third of the gap to the splits of the ladies who ride away from her historically. she's still got a ways to go, but some of that's training, and she only had 3 rides in the position and on the new bike. she's going to write about it in the next few weeks i think.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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There is indeed very little room between frame and stem. If you forget to place one of the parts on fork the stem will indeed 'touch' the frame. But i did had some lateral play at first with the pinch bolt at the original length, shaving off 2 or 3 of the threads solved the issue completely. And i did rebuilt it several times just to fiddle with some parts. I now have it with a pd svet zero base bar that matches quite nice with the stem. But i do found that it worked also with a syntace stem and with the first vuka stealth integrated stem/bar from zipp. But you don't have the storage options with that bar system

By the way, i have all those bb removal tools from park. I even showed it to some friends over at shimano hq here and the mechanics there tried to get the bb out. But they stopped trying because they didn't want to hammer with more force then they already did. I was there and witnessed it and the bb didn't even moved a tiny mm. Nothing, and i want my rotor ceramics bb in it.....;-(

But beyond the bb everything works how it should.

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [tri-run] [ In reply to ]
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tri-run wrote:
i have all those bb removal tools from park. I even showed it to some friends over at shimano hq here and the mechanics there tried to get the bb out. But they stopped trying because they didn't want to hammer with more force then they already did.

you need bigger hammers.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Caveat emptor with Diamondback: Andean purchase experience worst ever in my tri/cycling consumerism history [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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Are those serious questions?
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