OK, I want to thank you for saying you were focusing on pulling with lats. My lats are relatively huge for my puny body so your reminder was awesome...all that mass of muscle is happy that you reminded them to wake up and my arms are not trashed at all now!!!

OK today in the feats of strength category, 1:40 hrs 5200m swim

main set

1. 1500m continuous as 50 fly hard-25 free easy-50 free hard-25 free recovery - repeat these 150's 10 times
2. 1500m as 10x150 IM 25 fly hard-25 back hard-25 breast easy focus on glide-50 free hard-25 free recovery, 10 breaths rest and repeat

Sorry, I did not time anything. Set 1 was essentially the 1000m of 50/50 fly free with recovery 25's built in (but basically 10x50 fly + 10x50 free). Set 2, obviously there to try to get down to 3:40 in my Feb attempt at 200 IM for the ST virtual swim meet (Monty, what other events are on deck this month?)

Today's technical focus were:

1. deep water catch with back stroke
2. keeping my lumbar spine relaxed and using it as a whip in fly, free and breast

My swim workout is pretty basic:

Monday - 400m (Bike Workout Prior)
Tuesday - 800m (Run Workout Prior)
Wednesday - 1 hour swim as much distance as doable
Thursday - 400m (Bike and Run Prior)
Friday - 1 hour swim as much distance as doable

On short days I focus on form and will use trainers, like paddles and fins. I would love these to be longer distances but get limited by work starting so have to keep it capped.

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My personal training progress countdown to Ironman:
Triathlon Training

7 x 200 @ 2:45
6 x 150 @ 2:15, 50 kick, 100 swim
2 x 600 @ 9:00 snorkel
100 kick
10 x 150 @ 1:55; 2 paddles and buoy, 2 paddles, 2 p & b, 2 p, 2 swim
8 x 75 @ :05 rest, 25 kick 50 swim mix free and back
50 easy

5750 yards

5k this am (yards.. always yards.. trust me, I will let you know when i get to do meters!!)

two sets to focus on here the first part and last part of the "main set"
Set first.
Feedback second.
Part I
12 x 100 all on 1:30
Goal was to hold 125, 120, 115, 110 then repeat that x 3

then some stuff in the middle blah blah ...then

Part II
8 x 100 all on 1:30
goal was to hold 1:10, 115, 120, 125

Small group at the pool today, so I decided to count strokes (something I don't normally do nor do I advertise this as a form of effective training. DPS is paradigm that would benefit everyone if it were to be abolished, except of course the PTs who love to rehab shoulders) but nevertheless, I counted and checked HR. It has been a long time since I "focused" on that (strokes/length as a primary mover) and after today I remember why.

First round I basically hit the times no problem. Within a second on all of them.
122time 11/12 strokes --HR (not enough time to get it)
118time 12 strokes 21hr (10sec)
114time 12/13 strokes 21hr
109time 13/14 strokes 20hr
Three rounds of this and HR was lower on the "fast" one than all others.


Second round was even more dramatic from a numbers standpoint and we reversed the "effort" having the faster one first.
the 8 x 100 looked like this:
106 time 14strokes per length 19hr (10sec)
113 time 11 strokes per length 21hr
119 time 10 strokes per length 22hr
124 time 8 or 9 strokes per length --hr (not enough time to get it)
The second time through that set my HR was admittedly higher on the faster 100 bc of short rest after.
107 time 14 strokes 21Hr
114 time 11strokes 22hr
118time 9-10strokes 22hr
125time 8 strokes 23hr

--- distance per stroke, IE taking fewer strokes to move down the pool is not a standalone measure of swimming efficiency or improvement. Lengthening out my underwaters, extending my shoulders/elbows beyond full extension, accelerating and decelerating are an ineffective , exhausting and at their worst can cause injury (didn't I just read another thread on this dev, one that you responded to?)
Knowing that I classify as a "sinker" (having a low center of mass and high density (with a fairly dramatic "hang angle" from the surface)) these numbers reaffirm that if I don't swim and train and work in a way that reinforces faster tempos/rhythms (and bc of this higher stroke counts than i am clearly capable of swimming) that swimming is very hard for me.

I can do 8 strokes per length and hold 100s on 1:30 all day holding 116 range. or until my shoulders give out.
Or
I can do 14 to 15 strokes per length on 100s and hold 1:06s range with a lower HR. and with no shoulder pain whatsoever.

All the best,
DaveD

Hmm, interesting.

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if one of the reasons for the higher HR on low strokes per length is reduced O2 availability?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I had exactly 23 minutes to swim, so got my best bang for the buck;

3x500p@7;00(6;47/6;39/6;29) 100 IM kick(1;50)

1600SCY

Hey Jason,

absolutely! 100% right

But that is what folks do to "cheat" their way to lower stroke counts.
Combined with holding my breath longer while lengthening my streamline (as you said) , then add to that, this awful kicking of mine while im holding that breath off the walls and then of course few opportunities to breathe WHILE i am swimming, AND the effort required to "speed back up" after my long streamlines and time in between each impulse (or arm swing) ... that was exhausting!
Yet we read forum after forum to play swim golf or get your stroke count down and you'll be more efficient and of course DPS DPS DPS!!! Such a farce in my opinion.
The biggest bang for your buck in terms of feedback loops for swimmers to look for are Rhythm, Symmetry and Waste (ease of movement/effort)
FWIW.

daved

Dealing with a little hip stress. I can't flip turn - huge pain. But after hobbling a mile or so when running, everything loosens up and feels fine, more or less - I did a 30k (actually 19.1 mile) trail race, Saturday, with nearly 2500 feet of climbing and did ok, 12 minute something pace and second in my AG - 4 hours and small change. I swam Sunday at Shaw's Cove to Main Beach buoy, about 3100 yards, and paced this 17 yo kid back to Shaw's. Gave it the max effort and he hung with me. He's training for a 5 mile swim at Tempe Town Lake (ewww). Today, I swam 2500 yards, but still couldn't flip turn. 300s/200p; 1000 IM kick w/fins; 2x[4x25 progressive sprints :18 down to :16 - just can't break 16 seconds. and the cool down. Then ran at lunch 4.8 mile/300 feet climbing (flat more-or-less). 8:01 pace. That felt really good, shockingly. The best part was no branches scraping me, or having to duck under and no rocks to trip on!

Two weekends from now, the final run in the Winter Trail Race Series - a full marathon trail run from Blue Jay Campground to Lazy W ranch and back - over 5ooo feet of climbing. I must be nuts!

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

...hand on, this was the perfect time to do your 1000m of 50/50 fly free......7 minute warmup and then 16 min of riding the wave like a dolphin!!!!!

Today's main set was 5x200m as 100m fly-100free....fly was 100m hard fly, 25m recovery free, 50m hard free, 25 cruise. Lots of rest in between chatting with some folks at the pool so I can't say if the rest was 10 seconds of 2 minutes....it just depended!!!!

By the way on yesterday's set, I THINK I finally got the full "dive in" timing nailed on the fly entry (vs belly flop when getting tired):



Basically it is like doing this the other way, with the shins "locked in" to the water for stability for the core:



My core was totally cooked after that set. Actually my arms and lats were not too bad!

HS, sounds like an odd hip injury. I hope it clears up.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

yesterday 6 mi easy run, 525 yd swim, 6 mi bike
today 7.8 mi run w/ 2.1 mi @ 8:13 pace, 425 yd swim

just feel of water :-)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

usually don't post but thought I'd throw this one up.
300 sw/200 p/6*100 kk on 2 (25 fast/75 build, 50 ez/50 fast, 100 fast), 100 ez
400 on 6 steady (4.32)
100 fast on 1.45 (59)
300 on 4.45 steady (3.20)
100 fast on 1.45 (59)
200 on 3 steady (2.15)
100 fast on 1.45 (59)
100 steady on 1.30 (1.07)
100 fast on 1.45 (58)
50 ez
300 steady on 3.45 (3.23)
50 fast on 1 (26.5)
200 steady on 3 (2.15)
50 fast on 1 (27)
100 steady on 1.30 (1.07)
50 fast on 1 (27)
50 ez
6*100 on 1.20 (fins/paddles - focus on catch - 1.05s)

4200 yards on 75 min
have been really focused on releasing my traps and improving my T-spine mobility with rolling/stretching, and feel this has made a huge difference in dropping my shoulders which seem to be chronically tight.

One of the coaches said I should focus more on entry and pulling straight back as opposed to consciously focusing on internally rotating shoulder/keeping my elbow super high for my catch which I think has helped, notice I'm activating my lats more, and coupling my shoulders better which has really helped the power. Was taking steady 10 ish strokes/length for the steady swimming and given I've swum 5 days in a row, was pleased with my speed for the 100s.

When you say "dropping your shoulders" do you mean the leading shoulder is driving down and below your head/chin....like this:



If so I was experimenting with this after someone told my to drive my right shoulder blade down on backtroke entry for a deep water catch so that my left one comes up and puts me in both a better catch position and streamline position. I figure if the physics worked for backstroke, then the same should apply from free and get me swimming less like a barge and closer to torpedo body shape

its tough to explain, as I always have been told press the scapula down after I enter and keep elbow high, but to do that you need good shoulder mobility for the internal rotation of the humerus. I have reasonable mobility (far more then most AOS) but I was developing significant impingement syndrome despite an excellent physio/strengthening program for my shoulder. I also think I wasn't really able to turn on my lats at all doing this, and as such had a lot of the power coming from the shoulder muscles which exacerbates and lead to significant scapular dykenesis.

The way it was described to me was enter straight in, and immediately think of lat activation, not scapula activation, this (for me) pulls the shoulder down and allows a way stronger pull through. The dryland drill i'm working on is "punching" into a inflated ball that I'm holding onto a wall, with my other hand on my lat so I feel the activation as I press into the ball which is the same motion as entry into the water.

I don't think my elbow is as high, but its certainly not dropping. I'm also working on keeping my shoulders in a straight line, so all the energy is coupled (per gary hall sr's terminology) and I'm almost vaulting over my pulling hand because its anchoring better.

Hadn't done a Critical Swim Speed (CSS) test since April. Been doing a lot of distance-focused work since October, so I thought I'd do one today to see where I stood. Here was my workout.




200 pull, 200 kick
8x25 drill
4x50, build


CSS test
400y TT (4:48)
8 min rest (including 200y active recovery)
200y TT (2:18)


500 EZ choice


TOTAL 2100 yards, 45 mins.




CSS Test suggests my mile pace should be 1:15/100y. Damn if that isn't exactly the target pace I've been working on for the past several months.




Best CSS test I ever did was 4:47/2:17 three years ago, when I was doing a ton of specific race-pace training for the 400m/500y and 200 free. Feels good to be back at that level of swim-specific fitness. I'm pretty sure I'm actually a better miler now than then. Can't say for sure, since I didn't race it back then.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

OK, I can visualize driving scapula down and holding elbow high. I can work on that aspect!

Today main set.....15x200 IM as 50 fly-25 back - 25 breast -100 free. Then 400 as 50-50 fly free. Main focus was to drive down my leading shoulder so that the other one was up and high. Other than that, trying to use the core as a whip for my legs on fly and free.

I'm training for IM NZ but am having some left shoulder issues in longer, more endurancey sets.

I swam at lunch today so didn't have so much time to train as had client at 2pm.

Did

400 wup
100 kick
3x100 im on 2.00 easy
20x50 max on 60
100 easy
10x25 max on 30
100 wdown

When I say max i mean max for the number of reps, not for a single 50 or 25. so kinda a usrpt thing.

Shoulder felt fine afterwards and during.

Good luck with IM NZ!

On today's swim I tried to push the scapula of my leading shoulder down. My hips just automatically followed with a bit smoother rotation. I think part of my free limitation goes back to crash and neck injury in 2011 when I could barely turn my neck to look at either shoulder. There is no neck pain anymore and I have near full neck mobility, but I have been swimming with flat shoulders "bracing" for neck pain that no longer exists! So hopefully I can get some better streamline and rotation going and actually I have less leg spasm with my left leg that turns into drag chute each time I breath left when I push down hard with my right scapula (shoulder driven rotation vs hip I guess....).

Today's workout was 60 min XC ski followed immediately by 60 min in the pool, with 5 min drive from ski trails to pool. Let's just say, I had a bit less ooomph with my dolphin kick (core and legs) and with my triceps. Decided not to time anything and just focus on the scapula thing!

The good part of running your company is you get to train whenever you want. The bad part is you work every other moment of the day (OK OK....when I'm not on ST).

I was only able to sneak away and have 26 minutes today, so another short blaster;

7x100@1;40(1;24 to 1;20) 3x100IM kick@2;00(1;53's)
500p@6;45(6;19) 100IM kick--1;53
1600SCY

Dev,

Id like to add that i would recommend not doing any internal rotation with the arms. That just jams the shoulder.. and is the cause of a lot of "swimmers shoulder" syndrome.

Generally speaking the hands should "gently" face each other (palms) so it is actually a slight EXternal rotation to keep the shoulder free to move.
By keeping that general position it becomes much easier to keep that scapula depresed/engaged throughout the freestyle.

daved

Hey I did not get the "palms gently face each other" Can you show a picture from google that explains this?

no pic (yet) sorry

but put your arms out like youre driving your car and you have your hands at the 10 and 2 positions on the steering wheel. .. (Like the face of a clock) Your thumbs slightly up and palms (gently) facing each other. I guess "aggressively" facing each other would be in a "pre-clapping" position.

and I did just watch the GTN show and they have a swimming clip they show during every episode in which someone is swimming toward the camera. And you can clearly see the arm come in, and then the internal rotation as the thumb goes toward the bottom of the pool. In my opinion, that is what not to do, as you have to then reverse that to get your skeleton aligned to set your anchor.

does that help?
Ill try to dig up a pic or two.
daved

yesterday 8.6 mi run w/ 4 mi @ 8:34 pace; 6 mi bike
today 4.5 mi run really easy, 375 yd swim because I like the routine.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Hip slowly getting better, but still avoiding flipturns (I try one and decide.)
This AM:
5x100@1:30 1:20~1:15 (on open turns)
10x50k FL/FR/BK/BR
500p
5x100kwf FL/FR/BK/FL/FR
5x[4x25@:30 progressive] hit :15 3 times
100 s/k cool


2600 sc yardages

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.