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Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures
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Fact: Narrower tires (such as 23 mm) have less rolling resistance than wider tires (such as 25 mm) when each are pumped up to their recommended pressures, such as 110-120 psi for 23 mm and 90-100 psi or less for 25 mm. 28 mm are far slower when used at their recommended 80-90 psi pressures.

The myth that wider tires have less rolling resistance for triathlons ONLY holds true if you pump your wider tires to the exact same pressure as the narrower, higher pressure tire.

Reducing rolling resistance is a direct function of having higher tire pressure minimizing hystersis, not tire width. Think about it, why are train wheels made narrow and out of hard steel instead of wide, thick rubber that flex even though both can support the same weight?

So why wouldn't you want to run 28 mm width tires on your tri bike pumped up to 110 psi so that you can minimize the rolling resistance over 23 mm tires? It's because the volume of air in the tire grows in a power of 3 relationship to the tire width and it is the pressure x volume of air that produces the net stress at the clincher bead of the tire threatening to blow the tire off. So you will always have more rolling resistance in a 28 mm tire because you cannot pump it to as high of a pressure as narrow tires because the force exerted at the rims will be unsafe.

Don't listen to all the marketing saying wider tires are faster for triathlons, it is a complete myth that hinges on you pumping up your wider tires to above safe limits.

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Here is what Wolf VormWalde, tire designer for Specialized, says: “’Wider is faster’ holds for clincher and tubular tires under the condition of the same air pressure. Test results (below are) from Wheel Energy in Finland. The last column shows work (Watts) to keep constant speed (40km/h) of a test drum against the resistance of a loaded (50kg) tire.”

http://www.velonews.com/...ower-brethren_209268
Last edited by: Hybridlete: Sep 10, 17 19:13
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't you just give us your next 10 pre-prepared posts so we can rip the band aid off now.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Booooring
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Did you get bored in the other thread because no one would agree with your stupid claims?

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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None of my posts have been prewritten. They all come from reading the cycling news sites and from ideas being pushed around here that are wrong. When I see something that should be pointed out, I post.

Think about all you've heard about wider tires for tri having less rolling resistance. Did any of those rolling resistance tests actually pump the wider tires to recommended pressures instead of the same pressure as the narrower tire? All those rolling resistance tests are useless and misleading by giving the wider tires high pressures you would never pump to for safety reasons.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
Did you get bored in the other thread because no one would agree with your stupid claims?


No, I just thought of train wheels and then it was obvious that the rolling resistance claims made by the bike and wheel manufacturers are full of hot air for tri and I had to point it out.
Last edited by: Hybridlete: Sep 10, 17 19:00
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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What you're referring to is casing tension. Tires of different widths should be tested for crr at equivalent casing tensions, not air pressures as you point out. That said, tires of equivalent construction (compound, casing, etc) at equivalent casing tensions should have identical tested crrs. Flo is (probably) working on demonstrating this right now.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I can't wait to watch you get destroyed on this post.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Why don't you just give us your next 10 pre-prepared posts so we can rip the band aid off now.

I like this idea.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
What you're referring to is casing tension. Tires of different widths should be tested for crr at equivalent casing tensions, not air pressures as you point out. That said, tires of equivalent construction (compound, casing, etc) at equivalent casing tensions should have identical tested crrs. Flo is (probably) working on demonstrating this right now.

It was surprising that Flo didn't know did since an easy Google search brings up lots of articles. But it looks like lots of people in the bike industry make the same mistake, intentionally or unintentionally, to sell you wider, slower tires and wheels.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
I can't wait to watch you get destroyed on this post.

Bring it, son. My evidence and premise are solid. Unless you want to say you do triathlons on gravel roads and fire trails.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for giving me another reason to hit the "Hide User's Posts" button.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I douse my wider tires in baby powder and wrap them in a skin suit (all of which is easily accomplished in under 30 seconds) which more than makes up the difference.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Sep 15, 17 13:12
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Even if your theory or the article you posted (didn't read it) is correct "impedance" has been shown to dominate. Refer to Silca study:

https://silca.cc/...stance-and-impedance
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]
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captain-tri wrote:
Thank you for giving me another reason to hit the "Hide User's Posts" button.

I keep forgetting that's a feature
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [captain-tri] [ In reply to ]
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captain-tri wrote:
Thank you for giving me another reason to hit the "Hide User's Posts" button.

4 years here and I never realized/saw that option. Thanks!
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [SBRinSD] [ In reply to ]
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SBRinSD wrote:
Even if your theory or the article you posted (didn't read it) is correct "impedance" has been shown to dominate. Refer to Silca study:

https://silca.cc/...stance-and-impedance


From that impedance article, it only dominates at higher than recommended pressures. On the asphalt with the 25 mm tire they used, the rolling resistance decreased up to 110 PSI, and then they kept pumping the tire up with even have higher tire pressures to get the impedance loss to show up. Since 25 mm tires are only recommended for 90-100 PSI max, you would never encounter these impedance losses you claim dominate.

At an equivalent casing tension for a 23 mm tire, this would be at what I estimate to be around 130 PSI, which very few people would consider pumping to. So impedance losses are irrelevant in real world tire pressures used.

Your link actually supports the premise of this thread that narrower 23 mm tires have less rolling resistance than 25 or 28 mm tires for tri use on roads at the recommended pressures.


https://cdn.shopify.com/...10608784533602269289
Last edited by: Hybridlete: Sep 10, 17 19:40
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
captain-tri wrote:
Thank you for giving me another reason to hit the "Hide User's Posts" button.

4 years here and I never realized/saw that option. Thanks!

I've been lurking around here for far longer than you have and I didn't know that existed either.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Many times a sequel movie fails to live up to the first movie. There are exceptions at times (like Tobey Maguire's Spiderman 2, Captain America Winter Solder or Wrath of Kahn to name a few).

This thread (and this OP in general)......is not one of them. Makes me think of this:



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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [loxx0050] [ In reply to ]
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HAHAHAHHAHAHA

Thank you for posting that

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I apologize for insinuating that you might be Pubes/ Kyle Yay in the previous post. You obviously have a much deeper science background. He was a Lit major at Bryn Mawr.

What about starting with wider tires like 28s but then putting a bunch of hose clamps all around the wheel and tightening to 21? Obviously they'd be heavier and take longer to spin up, but the aerodynamics and rolling resistance would surely make up for that, right? I assume you could coat the point where the clamp contacted the road with something like rubber cement to maintain road contact and avoid slipping on corners.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it is a stretch to believe the impedance losses are higher at higher pressure; and that therefore you are better off running a wider tire up until some point where the losses no longer dominate (not claiming to know what width that is, but most believe 25 is better than 23 and 23 is better than 19, etc...).

Take a look at the image in the article that precedes the one I posted earlier:

https://silca.cc/...y-and-previous-works

Perform the thought experiment on the pebble and a narrow tire run at recommended pressures and then again on the somewhat wider tire. Extend the thought all the way out to the cyclocross or MTB rider....
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, in spite of his educational background, pubes generally made more sense than this guy. He had his moments of idiocy, but at least it wasn't every post he made.
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [Hybridlete] [ In reply to ]
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Hybridlete wrote:
BryanD wrote:
Did you get bored in the other thread because no one would agree with your stupid claims?


No, I just thought of train wheels and then it was obvious that the rolling resistance claims made by the bike and wheel manufacturers are full of hot air for tri and I had to point it out.

But train wheels are a terrible analogy for bicycle tires. The theory on why wider tires might have lower rolling resistance is reduced deformation. Train wheels don't deform in any meaningful sense
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Re: Fact: Narrower Tires Have Less Rolling Resistance for Triathlons at Recommended Pressures [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, the benefit of wider tyres at lower pressures is in the ability to deform more, thus preventing the vertical motions being transmitted to the big lossy thing sitting above.
Which is what the goat that started this thread doesn't get.
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