I'd noted this asymmetry in Phelp's stroke, with a longer "glide" on the breathing side and a quicker catch and pull on the non-breathing side. Seems to work well enough for him, and Katie.


This is a decent video on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b746O3Ltz44

Any idea why this works. I find I do swim a bit better this way but wondered whether it was just the fact that I could focus on one decent pull rather than making a meal of two.

I am guessing that someone call Phelps and Ledecky aren't doing it due to a lack of skills though. I read that Ledecky was actually coached to change from even to asymmetrical.

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About 8 years ago I was coached to have a more symmetrical stroke. I have done that since, until right after the Olympic trials I read an article on Ledecky and it mentioned that stroke. I've tried to go back to it and can for a bit.

What I notice is that the two pulls in closer proximity seem to lift me out of the water more. I am faster when doing this, but it does require more power in my stroke so I can't maintain it for more than a couple hundred. I used it some in my last 70.3 swim, mostly at the start to get out front. I have a couple other techniques that I use to increase speed when swimming and I found myself alternating between them and had one of my best swims ever.

One reason might be the fact that our bodies aren't perfectly symmetrical (through a number of different causes). It sounds like Phelps and Ledecky (and the OP) adopted/were coached to adopt strokes that suited their bodies better than someone's arbitrary idea of a "perfect" stroke.

If you think about it, introducing breathing into the stroke introduces an asymmetry so, IMO, it's a bit ridiculous to assume you could have symmetrical arm strokes and timing with an asymmetrical body movement (even if it's just barely asymmetrical).

This is an excellent video and I've watched it many times. Look at the view count!

Ya, I think you've hit the nail here as breathing introduces the asymmetry. It seems that many world class swimmers swim with the loping "hybrid" freestyle stroke. I think Ous Mellouli is a very nice example, espec for tri geeks since he's such a good OW swimmer. At about 3:10 into this video you'll see some great footage of his stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlPyBqEajUI

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I developed some serious one-sided shoulder issues going to an asymmetrical stroke

Buyer beware....

A hybrid stroke like that usually your breath timing is out.
You are starting to breathe late and consequentially finishing breathing late.
If you are a right side breather, this usually pushes your left arm wider at the front and also causes a bit of front crossover with the breathing arm.
Because the head is still out late, the body position is still disrupted and the left shoulder then drops deep in the water making it hard to maintain a high glide so it is intuitive to begin stroking as soon as the shoulder begins to drop.

Try consciously starting to roll your head earlier to breathe and you will find that as you can now return your head earlier, your body position will stabilise earlier and you will now be able to get a full glide/catch on the other side without feeling like you are sinking and wanting to rush the stroke.

What has finally clicked for you is that you are now aware of you body position more and are making subconscious changes to maintain your body position.
You are automatically changing your stroke to fix the problem that late breathing is creating.

It's a bit demanding but ideally you'd swim hybrid on both sides. One side would likely be faster than the other but this would balance out any training asymmetries while making you highly aware of your technique.

How would you do that? Can you explain more?

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You literally would develop a hybrid technique for both sides. E.g. be able to swim breathing right hip driven left arm shoulder driven right arm and be able to breath left hip driven right arm and shoulder driven left arm. It would, undoubtedly, require quite a bit of proprioception and concentration.

Gant., Thaks for sharing your insights. Sounds like you were completely focused on your technique, instead of just knocking out the workout on the board... giving your movements full attention, you were moving through the water with efficiency, and speed was developed! You were totally immersed in swimming technique,instead of just time as your focus, and your times improved! Replacing generic workouts with workouts that were focused on your technique, specifically designed for you to improve. It took a period of time to accomplish, but everything came together! Congratulations.
Now, not sure which Ledecky event you studied or how you came up with the Hybrid label. If you analyze swimmers' style, you will see the same swimmer using different techniques (stroke length, tempo, kick timing, etc.) depending upon the race distance and conditions, including Katie Ledecky. Look at her form in the 800 v. shorter distances. See the difference?
Having studied the Total Immersion system of swimming, I have discovered it is just what you are describing, it's the method, the focus, the movement that makes the difference and leads to speed. It doesn't happen over night, with one weekend or even a week of practice, as you found. Improvement takes time, as you found. Why reinvent the wheel? Someone has studied it for decades and brought it to us. Look into TI and see what you find. I am a different swimmer and have applied the system to other aspects of workouts too.. Good luck!

Breathing to one side for one length, then breathing to the other side for the return length. This is something that Phelps/Bowman have discussed quite a bit. Oddly, before I even read about Phelps doing it, it was something that I incorporated into my own training several years ago. I just can't keep a comfortable, consistent breathing rhythm breathing every 3, so I breathe every stroke. But I understood everyone saying that the merits of breathing every 3 are to prevent muscle imbalances. So to prevent that, I did the alternating length breathing thing. The added benefit of this is that when it comes time for doing a tri and swimming open water, I have the ability to switch my breathing side to adjust for waves/chop, sun direction, or someone swimming next to me, or sighting alongside land.

GreenPlease wrote:

If you think about it, introducing breathing into the stroke introduces an asymmetry so, IMO, it's a bit ridiculous to assume you could have symmetrical arm strokes and timing with an asymmetrical body movement (even if it's just barely asymmetrical).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs

I've been a hybrid for the duration of my swimming. I'd like more symmetry, but it's harder to create symmetry once asymmetry has been developed.

I've been doing hybrid freestyle for years.. Unfortunately it is a hybrid of all the possible flaws in a freestyle stroke!

But doesn't Phelps usually just breath on one side in races??? Looks to me like he only breathes on his right in this 2007 WR 200.

https://www.youtube.com/...GZM&spfreload=10

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You're right! I DO see the difference. I did TI about 4 years ago, after I'd been swimming for about 3 years, and it did make a difference... a BIG one. That's how I learned how to swim on the surface of the water and keep my hips up.

But a good rhythm was never there.... at least not compared to the one I've discovered with the hybrid stroke. I was taught hybrid about 3 years ago when I took a swim clinic led by Kevin Everett, a local pro in Boise. He is more of a swim specialist and so he explained the three different strokes. But I didn't have the fitness back then to maintain a hybrid stroke for more than a 100. Plus my breathing wasn't comfortable enough yet...

One thing I realized that is crucial to the hybrid is being able to take a very short quick breath, without lifting your head AT ALL. You must only rotate it slightly to get the corner of your mouth out, and then get it back under so the "fast" arm can come around for the shoulder drive portion of the stroke.

Also interesting, I'm much faster at this stroke when breathing to the left. Which is interesting, because breathing to the right has always been the more comfortable side to breathe on.... (although the last couple years, I hardly notice a difference). But I think it's because my right arm is my strong arm, and if I'm understanding hybrid correctly, you get more power in your pull from your non-breathing side. So I guess it makes sense.

I just did a 500 during warmup using my new stroke, and I swam 6:30. Before that, I was coming in around 7.

Interestingly enough, Ledecky does look like she semi lifts her head when she breathes.

I will have to study the Hybrid method. In TI, you do not lift your head, turn only, in rhythm with your whole body and stroke! I get into a rhythm which is similar to a 'dance.' It's all good. So focused. Glad you are having much success!!

I found this an odd comment, because for me, I find a hybrid stroke less tiring due to a longer glide after the breath. I find maintaining an even stroke generally more tiring.

So are you saying that a hybrid stroke is "two wrongs" and should not be encouraged? It seems to work well for some people, including Phelps and Ledecky, who presumably do it on purpose to be faster.

From Washington Post:

Her mechanics, common among male swimmers but almost unheard of among women, is often described as a “gallop” or a “giddy-up” stroke, or is said to have a “hitch.” Ledecky has called it a “loping” stroke. Essentially, instead of a steady, metronomic beat — left, right, left, right — her stroke is syncopated: short left, long right, short left, long right. She breathes almost exclusively to the right side.
....
Yuri Suguiyama, Ledecky’s coach from age 10 to 15, taught her that stroke in the spring of 2011 — about 15 months before she would win gold in London. To hear Ledecky tell the story, it was more or less accidental: She was doing a drill where she was asked to reduce her number of strokes per lap and had to lunge — or gallop — to reach the wall.
“She was swimming more like a classic female distance swimmer,” he recalled. “She would breathe to both sides. She had kind of a sporadic kick, or what we call a two-beat kick. And I don’t know — I just didn’t like the way she swam. . . . I think I was watching [video of] a Phelps race from 2007. His legs were moving the entire time. He had a nice little hitch, or a gallop, and I was like, man, Katie could swim that way. . . . It just takes advantage of the aggression and the kind of fury that she swims with.”
If the best female swimmer in the world swims one way, it would make sense for others to try to copy her. But it isn’t that easy. The gallop stroke requires tons of core strength, the sort many male swimmers possess but few females do.
“We found that it’s a very hip-driven stroke, and I have really good rotation and rhythm with my hip rotation, and I get a lot of power out of my hips,” Ledecky said. “So that stroke kind of maximizes that.”

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interesting. I have a pretty strong core so maybe that's why I find a loping stroke less tiring. no doubt I could still make many improvements though.
thanks for posting.